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Author Topic: Considering the Future for my MSM  (Read 11104 times)
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mr_hyde
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« on: August 08, 2011, 06:09:57 AM »

I’ve been having some thoughts regarding the ‘direction’ the MSM has been going for the last three years and I’m wondering your opinions on the topic.  The MSM is a special car that is unique and interesting all by itself.  There are clearly dozens of improvements that can be made but that is true of any car.
A good chunk of the MSM’s current duty is on the track.  I’ve been to 10 or 12 events this year and the car (and driver) is getting faster all the time.  When the tail steps out at 110mph on a track, it occurs to me that I would be sad to roll the MSM into a little ball of crumpled metal and although the maintenance and consumables are kept up at roughly 300% of the recommended intervals, the poor car does take a beating.
I picked up an NA over the winter (there is a thread or two on it somewhere) and was quickly surprised at how much I enjoyed driving it.  It starts easily, idles/runs great, is easy to get in and out of and has power steering.  Wait – didn’t the MSM used to be like this?  Obviously it did but a few winters of improvements designed to make it go around a track faster have made it a bit of a handful to drive on the street.
What if I took a few steps backwards with the MSM and made the NA (or a third, miata shockeyes ) into a track car?  It is easy to type but would take months of evenings in the garage to accomplish.  What would I leave on the MSM and what would get transferred to the new track car?  What would be the actual net costs?  I like projects so I don’t really care about the time commitment.  Here is the mod list that won’t fit in my signature – I’m sure I’m forgetting some things:

Power:
Adaptronic ECU and 600cc injectors
15g Turbo compressor upgrade
BEGI Intake
Ebay Intercooler
BEGI SGDP and Corksport 80mm Exhaust (modified)

Cooling:
FM Crossflow and Spal Fan kit
FM Oil cooler

Chassis Bracing:
Frame rails and full Butterfly (required exhaust modification)
Boss Frog Frog Arms and Door bars
Boss Frog Clearview Max Roll Bar w/harness bar

Suspension:
Xida Clubsports 700/400
Energy Suspension Bushings with zerk fittings
Racing Beat front sway 1.25” (will be reducing size no matter what car it goes in).
949 Racing adjustable endlinks (front only – rear stock)
V8 Roadsters Upper control arm ball joints
Properly depowered steering rack with welded pinion

Misc:
3.63 Gears
Miataroadster (tall) short shift kit
Boost Gauge in cluster
AFR, Oil Temp gauge and shift-I light in swappable cluster hood
9500ci radar detector/laser shifter
Grom I-pod interface
Thomson Remote Oil Filter kit
Audiovox CS-100 cruise control
Corbeau Forza seats on custom fixed mounts w/6 point harnesses (OEM 3 point functional for street)
15x8 6uls with 225/45/15 NT-01
Carbotech XP10/8 brake pads
Racing Beat front splitter (MSM specific model)
Hard Dog hidden hitch
Rearview mounted Scangauge (semi-functional with Adaptronic)
Fumoto Valve on oil pan
Rennmetal Tow Hooks front/back

The list is pretty big but if we assume for a minute the next track miata will be a turbo (but not MSM/IHI) there are several things that can translate to the new car.  Note:  LSx engines in a miata are an arousing concept but I simply can’t afford it right now.  My initial brainstorming lists the ‘big’ items that I would take out of the MSM as the Adaptronic and large injectors, frog arms, door bars, seats, depowered steering rack, FM cooling bits, Xidas and the butterfly.  The MSM would keep the intake, turbo upgrade, downpipe and exhaust, the frame rails, 3.63 gears and roll bar.  Coupled with stock seats, factory ECU and power steering, the car would still be quick and very drivable on the street.  The factory cooling is more than adequate with no track duty.
The new track toy would inherit a bunch of good stuff.  I’d still need a good rolling chassis and a powertrain including a turbo but a lot of the supporting pieces would be sitting in the garage.  I’d plan on a 1.8 turbo platform and would be targeting ~250 to 300whp eventually which would mean a built bottom end and a decent sized turbo.  A six speed is required for that kind of power and 3.63 gears are needed if you have a 6 speed (for track).  300whp requires a big brake kit and some aero work which, incidentally, is one of the major roadblocks for the MSM getting any faster – I’m not willing to cut up the hood, rivet an air dam to the front 2” off the tarmac and bolt a silly wing to the truck.
The whole concoction would probably not be street legal so a trailer and tow vehicle just upped the ante another $5k minimum (I did say minimum).  This said, I would probably need to do this in stages for financial reasons anyway so the car could do a season or two driving to (and hopefully from) the track under its own power…
If anyone is still reading these ramblings, feel free to respond with your thoughts on the matter.  To be clear, I am going to keep the MSM indefinitely and this is not a part-out thread.  If there is anything left over that doesn’t fit the plans for either car I will sell that at a later time.  What do you think?
-hyde
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2005 Black Mica #290 8/27/04 w/Factory Hard Top
BEGi Intake, FM Downpipe.  Nice and calm with an edge...

1990 Red - MSM Drivetrain, Adaptronic EMS, Xida 700/400, 15x9 6uls, Full Cage, SGDP w/80mm Corksport exhaust, ~260whp @ 15psi on Forged Rods.  bow2
Build Thread: http://www.mazda-speed.com/forum2/index.php/topic,24668.0.html

2000 BMW M5 - The Falcon - Daily Driver  reddevil

2003 E350 7.3 Powerstroke Ambulance for towing '90MSM to play dates.

1991 BRG - Daughter's daily driver.
VagaXt
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« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2011, 06:21:56 AM »

Sounds like you are starting to see what I see and understand what I'm going through, except I've already made the leap to my 3rd track-dedicated racecar Miata.  Wink

I'll have to read over again and give you meaningful advice afterward as I'm currently still busy editing my video of my qualifying laps from last Sunday in the rain.
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#992/4000, The Ultimate Daily Driver



I've started my journey toward wheel-to-wheel racing. Follow my driving adventures on my BLOG.

Also, see it action on YouTube.

I'm getting lonely being the only MSM in competition. Join me in Miata Challenge!!

"Drive well, please."
mr_hyde
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« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2011, 06:40:00 AM »

It's simply starting to go too fast without any downforce.  Getting wheelspin over T9 at Thunderhill in 4th gear at 100mph got me thinking and T1 at Pacific at 140mph got me nervous.  An off at the SCCA Club Trials last month got me serious.  It was a clean off and I did everything right but if I had goofed at a different corner, it could have been bad.  Plowing through gravel at 70mph ironically gives you a lot of time to think.  As a driver, I still have plenty of room to develop but I just don't feel like going much further in a car I don't want to bend up...
-h
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2005 Black Mica #290 8/27/04 w/Factory Hard Top
BEGi Intake, FM Downpipe.  Nice and calm with an edge...

1990 Red - MSM Drivetrain, Adaptronic EMS, Xida 700/400, 15x9 6uls, Full Cage, SGDP w/80mm Corksport exhaust, ~260whp @ 15psi on Forged Rods.  bow2
Build Thread: http://www.mazda-speed.com/forum2/index.php/topic,24668.0.html

2000 BMW M5 - The Falcon - Daily Driver  reddevil

2003 E350 7.3 Powerstroke Ambulance for towing '90MSM to play dates.

1991 BRG - Daughter's daily driver.
Gtiwv
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« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2011, 06:48:21 AM »

Get a wing and cannards
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MSM #36 DOB: 1-30-04
newold_m
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« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2011, 03:45:11 PM »

How about transferring the grippy stuff over to the NA (6ULs + Xida's) along with added safety stuff (brake upgrade?) for a season or until the engine gives out?  It'll essentially cost you nothing and you can walk away save the shiny coils w/o much regret in the unlikely event the car gets written off.  A slower car will also help you hone your driving skills further.  In the meantime you can start collecting a new engine/trans/turbo/aero etc. for the next stage.
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'04 MSM: sold
greenhat
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« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2011, 04:23:42 PM »

why not go in a little different direction but keep your miata knowledge and parts intake. go with the FM Westfield kit. you could experiment with all kinds of tire/suspension, engine mods, cooling features etc. with few restrictions. your driving skills are perhaps ready for a more capable platform? yet still keep a lot of the familiar miata base. (i've thought of this for myself, but i don't have a spare miata, nor am i likely to get one.) Smiley
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04 MSM VelosityRed #3593
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« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2011, 04:30:55 PM »

Yes.

http://949racing.com/aprgtc200wing.aspx
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mr_hyde
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Midlife Crisis on Wheels!


« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2011, 04:31:38 PM »

How about transferring the grippy stuff over to the NA (6ULs + Xida's) along with added safety stuff (brake upgrade?) for a season or until the engine gives out?  It'll essentially cost you nothing and you can walk away save the shiny coils w/o much regret in the unlikely event the car gets written off.  A slower car will also help you hone your driving skills further.  In the meantime you can start collecting a new engine/trans/turbo/aero etc. for the next stage.
That is a likely route even though I like going fast.  angel1  The classic and proper approach is to get into a slow car at this stage and learn to drive it fast but it's so much fun to run a whole day and only be caught by a car or two while passing everyone else!  When I drove the NA unexpectedly two weeks ago, I had to let a lot of cars by that I would have been passing in the MSM so I'll need to put the ego in the back seat (figuratively in a miata).
-h
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2005 Black Mica #290 8/27/04 w/Factory Hard Top
BEGi Intake, FM Downpipe.  Nice and calm with an edge...

1990 Red - MSM Drivetrain, Adaptronic EMS, Xida 700/400, 15x9 6uls, Full Cage, SGDP w/80mm Corksport exhaust, ~260whp @ 15psi on Forged Rods.  bow2
Build Thread: http://www.mazda-speed.com/forum2/index.php/topic,24668.0.html

2000 BMW M5 - The Falcon - Daily Driver  reddevil

2003 E350 7.3 Powerstroke Ambulance for towing '90MSM to play dates.

1991 BRG - Daughter's daily driver.
mr_hyde
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Fifth Gear
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Posts: 7213


Midlife Crisis on Wheels!


« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2011, 04:36:14 PM »

why not go in a little different direction but keep your miata knowledge and parts intake. go with the FM Westfield kit. you could experiment with all kinds of tire/suspension, engine mods, cooling features etc. with few restrictions. your driving skills are perhaps ready for a more capable platform? yet still keep a lot of the familiar miata base. (i've thought of this for myself, but i don't have a spare miata, nor am i likely to get one.) Smiley
That is an interesting idea but I don't know if I can make that financial jump.

GtiVW,
I know there are wings that would make the MSM be safer and faster.  The point is, I don't think I want to hack the car up any more (everything I have done so far is reversible except holes drilled for bracing).  I'm sure I don't want to wreck it and I'm at a point with my driving where I simply need to push harder into the limits which of course invites off track altercations - again, don't want to do that in the MSM.
-h
Logged

2005 Black Mica #290 8/27/04 w/Factory Hard Top
BEGi Intake, FM Downpipe.  Nice and calm with an edge...

1990 Red - MSM Drivetrain, Adaptronic EMS, Xida 700/400, 15x9 6uls, Full Cage, SGDP w/80mm Corksport exhaust, ~260whp @ 15psi on Forged Rods.  bow2
Build Thread: http://www.mazda-speed.com/forum2/index.php/topic,24668.0.html

2000 BMW M5 - The Falcon - Daily Driver  reddevil

2003 E350 7.3 Powerstroke Ambulance for towing '90MSM to play dates.

1991 BRG - Daughter's daily driver.
QQQQ
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Posts: 4673


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« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2011, 04:57:46 PM »

No one wants to wad up their car on track,regardless of its value. The best advice I have been given is if you can't afford to throw your car away at the end of the day,you should not be running it on track.

S-L-O-W cars on track suck.. Tongue  You cannot learn to go "fast" in a slow car.Some may disagree..but I don't care..been there and done it. Polishing your skills in a slow car makes you a great slow driver. Driving a fast car "slow",and working on your "fast" driving skills is the only way you will ever learn to drive a FAST car FAST. Smiley

Dollar for dollar,a modded MSM is a great car for track/street use,with some compromises in each venue.

I own my MSM because it fits my present performance needs and makes me smile every time I look at it... Smiley

Take off that silly hardtop and you will be able to drop right in... Grin
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 05:05:41 PM by QQQQ » Logged
Woofster
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« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2011, 05:01:26 PM »

I want another Miata too!  If I could find a '94 R Model I'd buy it in a heartbeat!   afro
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Hydra Nemesis; 550 injectors; Flying Miata Full Intake Kit w/MBC (MAFless) & GFB recirculating bypass valve; Flying Miata DP; Flying Miata Full Exhaust; FMIC 28X7X2.5; Fat Cat Motorsports Elites (single adjustable) 800/500; Racing Beat 1.25" Tubular Front Sway bar w/Brace Kit and Gearheads Gauge Adjustable endlinks; OEM 14mm rear sway bar; FM Frame Rails; HDHCDDHT Rollbar; Hard Dog Harness Bar; G-Force 6-Point Pull-Down Camlock Harness; Ultrashield Rally Sport Seat; Energy Suspension Diff Bushings; Carbotech XP10/XP8 Brake Pads;  Stainless Steel Brake Lines; 15X9 6ULS (Nickel) & BF Goodrich g-Force Rival (225/45/15) street; 15X9 6ULS (Nickel) & Hoosier A6 (275/35/15) track; 15X9 6ULS (Nickel) & Hoosier H2O (225/45/15) wet track; Stewart-Warner Boost Gauge; Thompson Nautilus Air Horn; Mobile 1 0W-30; Redline MT90; Redline 75W90; BEL-tronics Pro RX65. 1/20/08 190.06 HP @ 178.36 Max Torque (Need a new Dyno run because this is inaccurate with current mods!)
"Racing...is life!  Everything that happens before and after is just waiting."  -  Steve McQueen in Le Mans
QQQQ
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« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2011, 05:08:28 PM »

My slow NA Miata bored me to tears. I need acceleration along with handling.   Cheesy

I believe most people who eventually buy an MSM do so because they have driven a standard Miata and were not impressed with the overall performance.

No,the MSM is not really a "power" car..but it does hold its own at a respectable level of high performance and value. afro
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 05:23:48 PM by QQQQ » Logged
mr_hyde
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Midlife Crisis on Wheels!


« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2011, 05:36:14 PM »

4Q, I find myself agreeing completely with your points although lots of experienced track guys say you need to learn to drive a slow car fast instead of driving a fast car slow.  Do you notice they tend to drive 100whp miatas?  rolleyes

Nothing in the long-term plans involves me tracking a miata with less than 250whp.  I don't personally think you need 400whp to eat Corvettes and Porsches ~250 to 300 is plenty if you can drive.  I can 'afford' to wreck the MSM but I would be extremely sad if I did and I couldn't afford to simply replace it.  If I can build another miata for the parts I have plus another ~$5k and make it faster than the MSM, I think that makes some sense.  That way if I wad it up, I can find another roller and put everything back together in a month of garage evenings.

Woofie,
If I find a '94R I'll call you because that's a special car too.  I have zero interest in autocross classing so my track miata will need to start as a very basic car.  A salvage title that didn't involve chassis damage would be perfect...
-h
Logged

2005 Black Mica #290 8/27/04 w/Factory Hard Top
BEGi Intake, FM Downpipe.  Nice and calm with an edge...

1990 Red - MSM Drivetrain, Adaptronic EMS, Xida 700/400, 15x9 6uls, Full Cage, SGDP w/80mm Corksport exhaust, ~260whp @ 15psi on Forged Rods.  bow2
Build Thread: http://www.mazda-speed.com/forum2/index.php/topic,24668.0.html

2000 BMW M5 - The Falcon - Daily Driver  reddevil

2003 E350 7.3 Powerstroke Ambulance for towing '90MSM to play dates.

1991 BRG - Daughter's daily driver.
QQQQ
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 4673


WWW
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2011, 06:08:30 PM »

Yes,I have noticed a lot of experienced track drivers in Miatas,as they have learned to get the most out of a car,and a well driven Miata does embarass many "faster" cars driven by less skillful drivers..however, put a skilled driver in the "fast" car,and they will tear the mirrors off that Miata!
There comes a time in ones track life where you become..happy,content with the speeds you are travelling,and you do not wish for more.You can "polish" your skill levels...ergo the rise of the Spec Miata to cult status.
 However,there are some that will not be satisfied at those performance levels. Enter the need for "fast" track cars.
And yes..I have heard the expression HP is just a crutch. To that I respond with...a lack of HP as just an excuse for being behind... Grin
If you don't need to be at higher levels of performance to be satisfied...consider yourself lucky,because it gets mighty expensive.
Speed cost money.  Money does not guarantee speed..but it will open the door to higher levels of performance.

Deciding which floor to stop at is the problem. help

The Penthouse,please... afro

 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 06:10:23 PM by QQQQ » Logged
apagios
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« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2011, 07:36:21 PM »

ok just a thought, albeit probably niave, but my friend is dropping an LS1/T56 into his '94 M edition for a total cost of about what you are budgeting for a tow vehicle and etrailer for a non-street legal turbo NA.  Granted he is welding up all his own custom framing, rather then by the V8roadsters kits (he's a Mech engineer with SAE formula car experience, good with his Tig welder, and a glutton for punishment).

Anyway, he was going to build a turbo car when he bought the NA.  After much thought a used LS1 dropped out of a firebird or whatever exceeded his 250 hp power goal without even trying.  To hit 250 with the turbo he had would have taken some decently good tuning and optimizing of the entire system.  The LS1 exceeded that without even "working hard".

You could find a decent LS1 drop out, pick up the V8 roadsters subframe kits and probably build an V8 NA for roughly the cost of the turbo NA plus the tow vehicle & trailer budget.  The V8 NA can probably be street legal, and it likely wouldn't be working seriously hard for you, where as I am presuming getting a 1.8L bottom end built up, boosted and tuned to get 300 hp, that engine is liekly working it's little heart pretty hard. 

Basically with the amount of work you are looking to do to get the NA to your desired power levels you may as well go the LS1 route and skip the tow vehicle.  I think reliability wise you can probably expect less maintence on the LS1 then keeping a 1.8 turbo going at 300+ hp for track duty.

Cooling and Chassis upgrades might complement an LS1 nicely.
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