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Mazdaspeed Archive => Suspension => Topic started by: joeereid on July 20, 2015, 04:37:29 AM



Title: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on July 20, 2015, 04:37:29 AM
Remember that song that was drilled into our brains back in the 70's! It's been swirling 'round my brain all weekend.
Well the project has begun. Inspired the fantastic job that jmills with the splitter he managed to adapt to his MSM without hacking it up, I've decided to give it a go as well. MrHyde has done his own interesting approach as well, but that's on his "over the top" NA so it doesn't
really apply. The particular challenge that I am facing is that even though my car is only used for tracking, I don't trailer the car so it needs to remain semi-streetable to get to and from the tracks, which range from 40 to 250 miles away.
  I have two approaches that I will be sorting out this week. One is to make the front/center section of the splitter removable so it does not get torn off in the driveway outside the shop on my way to the track. The second is to make the unit so that it can be installed/removed from the car  in the pits in @10 minutes or less with @ 8 fasteners of some sort and then stowed for transport on the trunk lid, but I don't think that  may be practical, not that the other idea is practical, but we'll see how it goes once I get a little further into it.
The splitter plane will most likely be either 2 or 3 pieces of Baltic Birch, epoxied together cross grain, net 3/8"~1/2" thick and then the splitter will be cut out at a 45 deg. angle to the grain, which will make it super stiff flatness-wise.
 I was able to use my old TDR "splitter", (that I removed from my car after after witnessing MrHyde returning to the track from Subway with his sitting in the passenger seat), as a starting point. I was able to measure various point just by using the old mounting hole as reference points. I started with a basic tracing of the TDR (I eliminated the center "notch out" portion) and then moved it forward +1, +2  and +3 inches and traced the outline(s). The standard TDR protrudes @ 1 7/8" fro the nose of the car so I chose the +1 outline as a starting point. I added @3" to each side of the outline, moved forward @12" parallel to the centerline, so there's enough width to Spat/Canard the front wheels, and used a Fairgate Curve ruler to establish a new compound radius. The rough template is @35" deep(fore+aft) which nets @ 3'' protrusion at the front and will extend aft to the end of the stock under tray without blocking the "scoops" right before the oil pan. Width is @66'' at the front of the wheel well. I forgot to pull a dimension for the width of the tongue that extends toward the oil pan so I cut it at 32'' and will figure that out once I slip it under the car. It was up on a lift getting  a new diff so I pulled just about every dimension that will probably never be needed and, of course, forgot a couple of the simple ones.
I've got a few pics of todays progress but they're "phone' pics so I'll need to get one of my better cameras set up at the shop for a bit better resolution.
The APR wing should be here in about a week. I'm going to look at stiffening the sides of my spare trunk lid where it mounts to prevent buckling and R+D some sort of solid (hard rubber) blocking for the rain gutter to transfer the load to the body/chassis better.
....So...here we go! The photos are in the gallery if they don't make it to the page.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/Image.jpg)
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/Image_1.jpg)
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/Image_2.jpg)



Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: BreezyRacer on July 20, 2015, 03:15:40 PM
Love the song reference! And I will be awaiting postings on your project too.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on July 20, 2015, 04:04:01 PM
Interesting thought about making the front center portion removable.  I never thought about that approach.  That would probably be a lot easier than having to remove the entire splitter.  Installation and removal of the splitter is not a 10 minute process for me.  I can probably get it off in 10 minutes, but it takes longer to install.  It's also MUCH easier when the car is on jack stands with the tires removed.  The removal of the tires aids in installation of the arches that cover the portion of the tires that stick out beyond the fender.  

Just thinking out loud if you wanted the front portion removable....you could probably cut the splitter in half so that the front could be removed.  You could install two or three sections of tubing or pipe on the installed side and then have the next smaller size installed on the removable part.  When you go to install the front piece, you could slide the smaller tubing into the larger one and then have some sort of fasterner on the bottom of the splitter prevent it from separating.  I think the front air dam might be one of the complications of this approach.  

I think I read somewhere that someone made a splitter with a piano hinge in the middle so it would fold in half.  I haven't thought through this approach, but thought I would throw it out there.

I found that it wasn't too hard to make the splitter stiff front to back.  I did find it was hard to make the sides stiff since it is hard to find a mounting place near the sides of the car.  I mounted square tubing to help stiffen it up.  My only mounting points are at the washers just inside of the middle of the tubing (aluminum rod passing through the frame rain to the splitter), the turn buckles, and the PVC spacers near the rear of the splitter.  There really isn't anything toward the sides.  My dive planes and wheel covers also help support the sides.

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/album361/P1020004.jpg)

Remember that you really don't want anything mounted to the bumper for incidents like your avatar.   ;D

You may have already found this thread, but there are a number of pictures of my wing and splitter starting on this page.
http://www.mazda-speed.com/forum2/index.php/topic,25098.75.html (http://www.mazda-speed.com/forum2/index.php/topic,25098.75.html)

If you are swapping trunk lids, you will have to do something about the wiring.  I cut the factory wires (I hate doing this) and installed a (4) plug trailer light connector.  I installed the other end of the same connector on both my OEM and spare trunk lid.  It works great and I can also unplug the connector when I am working in the trunk area without killing my battery because of the tag light. Details are in the link above.

I be eagerly awaiting to see how you ultimately find a solution.   :mrgreen:  Meanwhile, I will continue to toil on the radiator ducting.  

I have tons of pictures of you want to know how I did anything specific.



Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: HELLIONMX5 on July 20, 2015, 10:34:54 PM
elk.jpeg in!


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on July 21, 2015, 02:15:51 PM
Good news! I won't need a splitter! I just won a FREE EZ Lip that should take care of all my aero needs. All kidding aside...I filled out their online survey and actually won! Basically I squawked about the lack of any durometer specs and lack of a engineered profile drawing of their upgraded garage door bottom seal. We'll see what it looks like when it gets here. Who knows' I may actually be able to incorporate it into my design...of course I'll need to know it's PROFILE SPECS first.
 The trunk lid will be a one time swap. Wing goes on then the stock MSM lid goes on the shelf. I never "street" this car. The new lid came missing the license lights so I'll address that and I will be mounting an AfterBurner Rain/Brake light that I've had on the "mods" bench waiting for me to devise a mounting solution that didn't involve me drilling into my Black Mica lid. So the new lid solves that dilemma.
I'm impressed by your aluminum rod dropped thru the frame rail support idea and will probably be adopting that as a starting point.
 Once I slid the template under the car the "removable front" idea became a bit more difficult than I had envisioned it, (but that's what the cardboard is for, right?) as it clearly makes mounting the garden edging a real challenge. I have been toying with the "Receiver" type mount since you and Hyde started your splitters so it's still on the table.
  I think I'll make a rough cutout and hang it in place with zip-ties and see how high/low I can go and still get it out of the shop. The parking lot is like a "proving ground" for this project as it contains myriad road conditions, dips, wallows slopes, curbs etc.
  Support rods; FiveStar Bodies, hollow alum hex tube and rod end kit. I can swap the bolts for clevis pins for removal.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on July 21, 2015, 03:22:28 PM
I thought about some sort of receiver type mount, but my concern was that it wouldn't be "break away" in the event of an off.  I have seen a couple attached this way and the mount looked too secure in my eyes.  I am sure it could be designed differently, but I haven't thought about how to do it. 

The rear attachment point is where the rear of the plastic under tray attaches.  With my design, these attachment points aren't really supporting much weight and really act more to hold everything in place.  If you look at your car, the undertray bolts screw into small tabs.  I was originally using metal bolts, but later switched to nylon bolts.  The problem with the metal bolts was that if you hit the front of the splitter against something solid, the metal tabs would bend.  I found this out when loading the car onto the car trailer.  I have homemade ramp extension with wooden "steps".  If I hit the splitter on one of the steps, it would push the splitter rearward just slightly, but bend the metal tabs.  The nylon bolts allow more movement.  I haven't had any issue and have been using them for the last year and a half or so.  The aluminum support rods and the turn buckles allow for a little movement with no issues. 

When I say movement, I don't mean that I can grab the splitter and wiggle it around.  It takes a good bit of force move it, but a car moving a .5 mph and jamming the splitter against an immovable object is enough to do it. 


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: '95MSM on July 23, 2015, 06:28:35 AM
Hyde and I have discussed splitter mounting more than a few times. I would try to build a splitter so that the front can be raised. Whether this would require hinges or just a flexible mounting system is to be determined. You could suspend the front of the splitter with cables, and line the contact points between the splitter and any speed bumps, driveways, etc with Jabroc, delrin strips or some other similarly durable material that can scrape along the pavement without too much damage. Or make a support like Joe has, but design it to be able to collapse.

My race car may or may not have a similar system with support rods that set the angle of attack, but have a sliding portion so the front of the splitter can be raised. This violates the letter of the rules about movable aerodynamic devices, but the reality is that if I keep the car on track, the only time the splitter is raised is when I load the car into the trailer. If anyone ever complained, I could cut a spacer to the correct length and make the setup rigid for the track. The spacers would be removable in a few seconds, restoring the flex capability that is so useful when I load the car.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on July 24, 2015, 04:02:03 AM
After staring at the cardboard mock-up for a few days I still haven't had any epiphanies as to what exactly I'm going to do. Making it fold up at the front or making it easy to raise/lower is not so much a problem, it's how to make the airdam transition between the MSM bodywork and the splitter adapt to the position(s) of the splitter. I have it mocked up at@ 3.5" off the ground right now. Gonna calculate the flat tire angle and enter that into the equation as well.
 On another note, my APR wing showed up today so I can start looking at the trunk mounting situation.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on August 03, 2015, 03:29:16 AM
The splitter design is still rolling around in my brain. Got some good ideas from seeing a custom one piece GT3 nose that is based on the "receiver" technology at the track the other day. I discussed my project with the builder and we hashed out a few ideas that I will need to prove in cardboard before I proceed in earnest. I'm waiting on some telescoping aluminum tubing and some 2-part foam samples and I need to brush up on my Fiberglassing skills. The last time I work with it was 1974,so...
 While doing some research I stumbled across the fact that the inside of my rear bumper is basically a parachute so I thought I'd try and address that and hopefully eliminate some of the drag it may be causing. I took an old foam couch cushion and cut it up into "plugs" with an electric steak knife, and then sprayed them with Rubberized Undercoater. I made plugs for every void except the ones directly above the stock tiedowns, as that is where the trunk rain gutter drains. I made a paper template and was able to form them so that they are wedge-locked into place by the aluminum bumper, yet can be easily removed.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/Image_2_001.jpg)

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/Image_1_001.jpg)

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/Image_001.jpg)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: HELLIONMX5 on August 03, 2015, 01:15:29 PM
There was a post on cr  from mt  that the best for rear bumper was
1. Diffuser
2. No bumper
3. Stock rear bumper
.4. Cut out

Some test were done, but I can't remember where the thread went.

The parachute effect you speak about is true up to a point. The test showed that it created a pocket of AiR there and didn't cause the parachute effect anymore because it stayed trapped in that area.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on August 07, 2015, 12:47:24 PM
There was a post on cr  from mt  that the best for rear bumper was
1. Diffuser
2. No bumper
3. Stock rear bumper
.4. Cut out

Some test were done, but I can't remember where the thread went.

The parachute effect you speak about is true up to a point. The test showed that it created a pocket of AiR there and didn't cause the parachute effect anymore because it stayed trapped in that area.
Good to know. I figured it couldn't hurt to plug it up. Shooting for #3 with #1 on the list


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: HELLIONMX5 on August 07, 2015, 01:37:08 PM
you're welcome buddy. Good luck!


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on August 13, 2015, 05:45:38 AM
Couch cushion segments installed. We'll see if the do anything. Back to the splitter..Looking into something along the lines of the GV Urethane front lip to merge between my splitter "plank" and the lower portion of the OEM bumper. Most of that stuff is for stock NB front ends but thinking about trimming it to fit.  Ebay has some cheap options for mockup purposes that I may experiment with. REV9 shows a NUE Front under diffuser that's specifically for the Mazdaspeed front end. Is this something new or has this been around for a while and/or has anybody seen one?


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on August 13, 2015, 12:06:13 PM
I still think the Home Depot hard plastic garden edging is a good option for the front air dam.  It's cheap, easy to form with a heat gun and easy to cut/trim.  I'm not sure the GV lip would get the splitter as low as you would want.  If you are driving to the track, you probably want it a little higher than my splitter (set at 3" off the ground), but even at 4", you will need a pretty sizable drop below the bumper. 


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on August 13, 2015, 01:59:02 PM
I still think the Home Depot hard plastic garden edging is a good option for the front air dam.  It's cheap, easy to form with a heat gun and easy to cut/trim.  I'm not sure the GV lip would get the splitter as low as you would want.  If you are driving to the track, you probably want it a little higher than my splitter (set at 3" off the ground), but even at 4", you will need a pretty sizable drop below the bumper. 
Agreed. Been toying with some HD edging. Problem is the vertical "fence" required to attach the edging to the splitter is complicating the "removable/receiver" type design I am contemplating. Trying to come up with some sort of air dam that would remain on the car while the splitter planes are removed. True, probably not enough vertical drop, but if it matched the lower contour of the bumper I could morph something to it that would reach the splitter. Just another idea I'm tossing at the wall to see if it sticks. More and more it looks like I'll messing with some 2-part foam and making my own piece if I go the "receiver" route.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on August 13, 2015, 03:19:02 PM
You may have already figured this out with the hard plastic edging, but you can score it with a razor blade and it will then snap along the scoring.  A utility knife worked best since you do have to score it with a decent amount of pressure.  I found this method to be the cleanest and easiest.

It's debatable which requires more brain power....the ducting or the splitter.   :o


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on August 28, 2015, 03:12:48 AM
Real world R+D begins. Made some cardboard "how low can we go" templates. They slip over the lower snout and are designed to either deform of fall off when they encounter immovable objects. Gonna test them getting on the ferry on the way to the track tomorrow and will tether them to the car with dental floss to retrieve the data

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/IMG_20150827_171639_001.jpg)

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/IMG_20150827_171108_001.jpg)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: HELLIONMX5 on September 03, 2015, 01:37:14 PM
How did it go?
How low are you BTW?


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on September 04, 2015, 02:22:29 PM
Pinch welds are at 4 5/8"~3/4" Front, 5-ish" rear.  I have the fender lip #'s somewhere, but I go by pinch welds.
The templates did their job quite well. I pulled onto the ferry  "semi aggressively" to try for worst case scenario results. The 4'' out, 3 1/2" up template popped off right away and had to be retrieved by a ferry worker for analysis. The 3'' out, 4" up template remained on the car, slightly dis-located, and showed signs of contact at both lower points. So that tells me that I will need to go higher and shorter for clearance if I want to leave it on the car all the time. Consulting with millsj and perusing some of his photos reveals that the max splitter height is semi-determined by how high you can get it mounted at the rear by the oil pan and plane forward from there somewhat parallel to the ground. So it appears I may have to go with the "receiver" design, making the L+R spats/canards, and the L+R front main planes removable and stow-able in the vehicle for the jaunt to and from the track.
 I bought a $75 ebay GV Lip to see if there's some way to morph it into an air dam that would always remain on the car, and they are right when they say it won't fit the MSM. Our OEM "splitter" trim does not match the profile ( I was not surprised, btw), placing the GV lip too far forward to line up with the wheel wells and/or too far down with a huge gap across the center section. I have not thrown in the towel on it yet though. There may be some urethane foam,rubber modifications in its future. I may be dumping the whole MSM lip but I don't know yet. A few more cardboard template tests to make of some other designs/options and gotta clear some space in the shop before I dive into this project in depth after the season.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: HELLIONMX5 on September 05, 2015, 06:40:30 PM
where do you live?


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on September 05, 2015, 07:36:49 PM
Seattle, Wa.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: HELLIONMX5 on September 05, 2015, 09:27:42 PM
I thought you were in California...

you should look over at miataturbo in the diy section. There is a sticky.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: Lokiel on September 06, 2015, 12:03:49 AM
:
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/IMG_20150827_171639_001.jpg)
:
I'm wondering if you could do something similar with styrofoam - if you angled the bottom leading edge corner, hopefully it would just shave down rather than snap off completely.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on September 06, 2015, 03:53:02 AM
I thought you were in California...

you should look over at miataturbo in the diy section. There is a sticky.
Believe me..I'm very familiar with that thread. If anyone has a few hours to kill and is thinking aero, that's a good place to start....or give up!


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on September 06, 2015, 04:13:22 AM
:
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/IMG_20150827_171639_001.sized.jpg)
:
I'm wondering if you could do something similar with styrofoam - if you angled the bottom leading edge corner, hopefully it would just shave down rather than snap off completely.
Actually the cardboard worked quite well. I cut it so the "grain" could "acordian". I started with styrofoam but  cutting was not as easy and the first one snapped in half when I tried to slip it on the snout. For a brief, albeit insane moment, I toyed with the idea of making a veil of solder which would capture and hold the impact profile...crazy...I know.
 The fact that even the smaller version was impacted told me what I needed to know...not streetable. Had my engineer buddy down at the shop today and we hashed out some design criteria for the receiver mounting scenario. He's working on some initial drawings and I've just sold my old work truck, which was eating up valuable shop space, so now Ive got the room to start working on this thing.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: HELLIONMX5 on September 06, 2015, 01:50:17 PM
why don't you use millsj idea? his is faptastic!

did you get your ez lip kit?

Also for reference I have this posted in that group buy interest thread.

http://www.mazda-speed.com/forum2/index.php/topic,31406.0.html

picture for ideas here.

http://gladfab.myshopify.com/products/na-miata-front-splitter-kit-group-buy

I was thinking make the turn buckles attached to the baby teeth bolting area. make it go forward, ahead of the lip, instead of sideways.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on September 06, 2015, 02:28:09 PM
millsj is my main inspiration for this project as his set-up is indeed fantastic. He has graciously supplied me with his R+D info and I will be picking his brain again I'm sure.
Joe has a trailer. I don't. I drive my car to and from the track. So unless I want to fab/incorporate a luggage rack into the  APR wing (and don't think for a minute that I didn't consider it ) to haul the splitter assembly to and from the track, I need to engineer another solution to make this hair-brained scheme work.
Yes, my free EzLip arrived and I will be installing it on the bottom of the garage door today...kidding. Pretty much the same profile as that deluxe rubber garage door seal but it's more foam-like. I'm sure it will make it on to the car  in some way, shape or form eventually.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on September 06, 2015, 02:58:27 PM
My design works great on the track, but it wouldn't last long on the street. I do trailer the car and have 5' ramp extensions to get it on the trailer. I would scrape on any driveway or gas station entrance that has a rise. I have also scraped on the street at an intersection where the road I am crossing has a large crown. Basically, any place where the nose is pointing down hill and the the road goes back up, you will scrape.  Parking against curbs and such can also be bad. This is why the splitter comes off when I want to drive on the street.

I'm seeing a roof mounted splitter for JR.  ;D


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on September 07, 2015, 03:02:46 AM
And so it begins. Mocked this up today. Paying a little homage to the millsj design. Crude, yet effective, fullsize 3-D mockup, 3" out, 3 1/2" up. Solidworks drawings being generated to map/sort out the  "hidden, streetable" aluminum/Birch superstructure that will house the receivers and remain on the car.

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/IMG_20150906_173042.jpg)

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/IMG_20150906_173018.jpg)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on September 07, 2015, 03:20:59 AM
Here's the drawing showing the superstructure and receivers. ...work in progress. Gotta mock up the "arrow" section and see what's in the way of what.

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/SPLITTERDrawing1_Model_4.jpg)



Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on September 07, 2015, 01:53:57 PM
Looks like progress and high tech stuff.  :mrgreen:


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on September 08, 2015, 02:47:40 AM
We use only the best cardboard and masking tape around here. Finished mocking up a scrap wood version of the superstructure today. I'll be using some baling wire to hold it in place for some testing at various local potholes, dips, driveways and curbs to test the streetability of the design so far.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on September 09, 2015, 07:06:50 AM
I mocked up the 4 removable elements in full size to check wether or not they will fit in the car. The 2 front main planes will fit behind the passenger seat if I slide it forward some, and the 2 outer elements fit nicely on the parcel shelf with room to spare. So that's good news. The receiver technology is proving itself a bit problematic. Lots of little pieces that have to be fitted, welded and aligned perfectly square with other little pieces, and all the hardware,pins etc, so were looking at a couple of different options to marry the pieces together.  A simple lap joint, t-nuts and allen button heads is the first option that's come to mind so I'll be testing that theory tomorrow.
Some pics of the 5 elements involved in this design;

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/IMG_20150908_112954.jpg)

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/IMG_20150908_112853.jpg)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on September 09, 2015, 03:08:30 PM
Looks promising, but as you say, it's all the details that get complicated very quickly.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on September 11, 2015, 04:30:55 AM
Used some landscaping foam to take a mold off the LF corner to start working on the canard/spat fairing. I think the key to getting this stuff to set up in such a huge amount may be water; lay a little then mist it with water and then lay some more. Sprayed the bumper with coca-cola to get the painters plastic to stick to the car and eliminate some of the wrinkles.

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/IMG_20150910_081150.jpg)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: mprhead5 on September 11, 2015, 04:48:10 AM
looking great!


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on September 12, 2015, 10:01:45 PM
You are in luck.  The car is currently on jack stands being prepped for the track.   I don't think I modified the holes, but you are correct that the plastic undertray is sort of in the way.  I went the easy route here and just bent the undertray out of the way.  It appears that there is an attachment point for the undertray that I don't use anymore and I then just bent the undertray around the aluminum drop rod.  This is the driver's side.  The bottom of the picture is the front of the car.

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/album361/P1090467.jpg)

It looks like the undertray used to attach with a nut to a stud at the 7:00 position of the drop rod.  You can also see the ducting in the lower right of the picture.  I think my ducting is more inside of yours. 

This is the same side, but a different angle.  the front of the car is toward the right.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/album361/P1090463.jpg)

This is the passenger side and you can see ducting in the lower left side of the picture.  It's hard to get a picture here, but it is basically the same as the driver's side.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/album361/P1090458.jpg)

In street driving mode, by drop rods only extend down about this far.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/album361/P1090466.jpg)

When I head to the track, I screw these short extension onto the drop rods.  The extensions go through the splitter and are secured with a nut and washer on both the top and bottom of the splitter.  The nut that is taped in place goes on top of the splitter.  It is taped so that I don't have to set the height every time I install the splitter.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/album361/P1090469.jpg)

Let me know if you want any other pics.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on September 13, 2015, 01:38:04 AM
Thanks Joe. Exactly the pics and info I needed. Looks like my outboard ducting may be an issue.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on September 14, 2015, 04:13:44 AM
Road testing the superstructure today. The mock-up is of the receiver design that has been placed on the back burner while I look at some other options. Still trying to retain the "arrow" shape of the superstructure at this point, which is set at 3 1/2" ground clearance for this test. More data..back to the drawing board.

This is worst case scenario. I would never try this even without the splitter as the nose is gonna hit anyway. The combined slope of the road and driveway here is 17 deg.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/FullSizeRender.jpg)

Trying the same driveway approaching at @ 15 deg angle. Still a no-go.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/2FullSizeRender.jpg)

This is a fairly deep wallow that I would normally approach with caution anyway with the ride height this low. Room to spare, barely.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/3FullSizeRender.jpg)

 


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on September 14, 2015, 12:47:52 PM
Or you could just carry a stack of 2"x4" boards in the trunk to help raise the nose when needed.   ;D

This is probably over complicating things and I'm not even sure if it would be possible, but could the superstructure be raised and lowered with a couple of turnbuckles or something similar.  I thought having the ability to raise and lower my splitter when I was designing it.  I spent some mental time thinking about how my support rods could be adjusted from the top side (just behind the headlights) to either raise or lower it.  My thought was that I could also have different height spacers in the very rear that could be swapped out for different heights.  The front turnbuckles are easily adjustable.  I eventually ditched the idea since I figured I wasn't going to adjust the height once it was set.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on September 14, 2015, 02:04:53 PM
Currently, the height limiting factors are the rear under tray  'scoops' and the chin spoiler under front nose.  The piece is just zip-tied to the car and it is as high as it will go without getting out the sawzall. Did you remove your chin spoiler?


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on September 14, 2015, 02:41:08 PM
This is the front end as it sits at the moment.  I'm missing a couple of fasteners in the pic, but all the parts are in place.  The lowest point for me is the bottom of the box covering the oil cooler (the silver thing on the left of the photo).  Our ride heights could also make a difference in the clearance between the undertray and the splitter.  I don't remember my ride height, but I think it is either 12.25 or 12.5 in the front with a .25" f/r rake. 

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/album361/P1090066.sized.jpg)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on September 14, 2015, 03:59:31 PM
Okay, I don't see your chin spoiler or the  associated panel. That helps.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on September 14, 2015, 04:13:11 PM
I think my chin spoiler went away when I installed the intercooler several years ago.  I did have the small plastic undertray piece that fits under the intercooler installed until the ducting.  It isn't necessary anymore.  This is the piece that we both shaped with a heat gun to make fit with the FMIC.  It would have fit between the undertray and bumper in the pic.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on October 09, 2015, 12:07:53 AM
Seeing as how this all ties in together, Wing, Splitter, and Hood venting, I'll combine all my misery  and triumphs into one thread;
   Prepping the donor lid for wing install. Got a bunch of Duplicolor Black Mica 16w and was going to buy their clear coat, but after reading some iffy reviews on amazon about gasoline taking it off, I emailed them and asked them about it. Apparently their automotive clear coat does not hold up against solvents. What?. Gonna have to get some of that 2K stuff instead, $22+/can. Waiting to hear from Automotive Touch Up about the composition of their clear, but if it's lacquer based like the Duplicolor it will probably suffer the same issues.
 Meanwhile, UPS indicates that my new wing from APR is in town so I may have it by tonight. We''ll see how well they can read engineered drawings. The other wing was so far off it's ridiculous.
My RunCool hood louvers showed up last week, nice looking piece. Gotta finish the wing/trunk project to clear room for the hood project. Will have to figure out the placement so it's behind the radiator but forward of the FM Airbox seal...kinda forgot about that but it should be okay.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on October 11, 2015, 03:11:30 AM
Wing Fits!....not without a couple of hours grinding the brackets to marry them to the wing properly though. Now I can go ahead and order the 2.5" Risers, Gurney Flap and Singular End Plates. Deck lid underside is painted white and flipped back over to finish the bodywork on the top side. Ordered some SprayMax 2K Clear. The guy at the body shop supply house says it's the good stuff, 2 part urethane bomb can. Have a test sample of the DupliColor Black Mica +Clear to buff and check for match. Hoping to shoot the lid next weekend.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on October 19, 2015, 06:43:41 AM
Well the decklid is painted, not without a  few setbacks however. I've decided the hood will be sent out for painting once I get to the louver project after struggling thru this nightmare, can of worms project. Will post of some pics of it once I get the clear coat cut+buffed. I must say that Duplicolor Perfect Match 16w looks pretty darn good though.
Singular end plates arrived and Gurney Flap and risers should be here tomorrow. Eager to get this project off the bench and onto the car.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on November 12, 2015, 02:43:45 AM
Finally off the bench and on the car. I let the paint cure a bit so it wouldn't react with the rubber bits. etc. Took the time to make a mount for an FIA, Retina Burning Rain/Brake light that's been kicking around the shop for a while. I figured the donor hood would make a good test mule for the set-up.  Found a good use for the Delrin door bushing. Still need to sort out some circuitry issues but for now it just gets tied in to the 3rd brake light.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01361.jpg)

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01362.jpg)

The wing with 2.5 risers and Singular endplates on the donor lid
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01363.jpg)
I swapped out the button head hardware for socket head, which I drilled for safety wire. The upper bracket that attaches to the wing required some tedious milling to get it to fit the contour of the wing properly. I applied some thin foam that will compress to less than 1/64" to the top of the brackets and installed the socket heads with a washer and lock washer to keep things snug without excessive torque. The safety wire should keep everything from going anywhere.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01366.jpg)
This is a shot of the reworked bases, As you can see, they fit much better now and are not distorting the decklid like other installations I have seen. Still not 100% perfect but 200% better than the way they came. I've also added a well-nut to the bottom of rear stud which transfers some of the load directly to the inside rain gutter. The theory is good but the rubber is a little softer than I was hoping for. I may try to source a higher durometer or my other idea is to put longer studs in the rear and make the same thing out of delrin with just a rubber foot. It has to protrude far enough to reach the gutter but not so far as to interfere with closing the trunk. I can't really do the same thing to the forward stud as it's already semi-interfering with the trunk weather-stripping.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01368.jpg)

This is the all the mounts lined up almost perfectly vertically. This was the major issue with the first wing, nothing lined up. Still not perfect but way better than the way it came out of the box. The new wing was drilled out to my specifications which made a huge difference in alignment, combined with the milling of the wing brackets.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01369.jpg)

I'm contemplating making some sort of fairing to surround the riser assembly. Their pieces don't seem to fit as well as they could and it kinda looks overly complicated as is. but  at least it's finally on there.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01378.jpg)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: mr_hyde on November 12, 2015, 06:35:18 AM
Looks outstanding!  Do you have anything in the front yet?  If not, you will find the car will be pretty tight in the medium and high speed sections until you balance that out.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on November 12, 2015, 09:17:26 AM
Nothing in the front yet. I'm going to tackle the front hood venting next and send it out for painting. Then I can focus on the something for the front end.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on November 12, 2015, 01:35:57 PM
Looks great!  The front will be a little light, but you will notice the benefits of the wing.  I ran this set-up for a couple of weekends before adding the splitter.  The rear will feel VERY planted.   :mrgreen:


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: 04TitaniumGrayPhilly on November 13, 2015, 11:47:36 PM
So what would you say to someone considering the GTC200? Worth the hassle? Go for the 949racing "miata specific" gtc300?


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on November 14, 2015, 01:58:55 AM
It's the "Miata Specific" part that I found to be hogwash. Some of the mounting bits had S2000 stickers on them. The exact placement of the nutserts on the foil is very critical ad their tolerances seemed to be a bit sloppy, if not completely wrong as they were on the first foil.
     I think this is something they designed to fit the S2000 and someone discovered it was also the right size to fit a miata so they just write 'miata' on the box before they send it out and call it "miata specific". Now some people may not care if it fits that well "because race car" but I was really dissapointed in the way it sat out of the box. I relayed all my fitment concerns and fixes to APR as well as corrections to their directions so it's up to them as to wether they devote any effort into making it truly fit the miata properly, and of course, all of the modifications I had to make to get it to fit properly have voided any warranty( gee, now where have I heard that before...).
    I would be skeptical about any of their other offerings fitting any better but who knows. Bottom line, nice piece if you can devote the time, effort, patience and the tools/skill/knowhow to make it fit right and look right. If you're looking to just slap something on there, it's a crapshoot... an $800+ crapshoot.
   If anyone is interested in going this route, contact me and I will send you the data so you can order it custom drilled to my specs and I can walk you thru the "belt sander" milling of the other bits involved. Once those issues were sorted it fit near perfect, as evidenced by the pics of the vertical alignment of the pedestal components.
 Or better yet, contact APR and ask if they've fixed the poor alignment, lousy wing bracket fit, trunk lid distorting base mount, warped foil issues with their "Miata Specific" APR-GTC-200 yet. The GTC -300 is going to use the same hardware, the foil is just longer, so the potential for the same fitment issues is the same.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on November 14, 2015, 03:00:18 AM
And now that I've finished, Singular comes out with this;
http://www.miataturbo.net/race-prep-75/singul%C3%A4r-motorsports-aero-wing-86624/ (http://www.miataturbo.net/race-prep-75/singul%C3%A4r-motorsports-aero-wing-86624/)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: 04TitaniumGrayPhilly on November 14, 2015, 01:57:40 PM
And now that I've finished, Singular comes out with this;
http://www.miataturbo.net/race-prep-75/singul%C3%A4r-motorsports-aero-wing-86624/ (http://www.miataturbo.net/race-prep-75/singul%C3%A4r-motorsports-aero-wing-86624/)
I have to say I'm really upset with you for showing me that, I was just contemplating getting the Singular endplates to have for the future, and I was recently admiring MillsJ's COT setup, and this seems to blend both together. I think I'm gonna have a great Christmas!

Does singular make stuff continually, or small batches?


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on December 07, 2015, 05:39:39 AM
And now that I've finished, Singular comes out with this;
http://www.miataturbo.net/race-prep-75/singul%C3%A4r-motorsports-aero-wing-86624/ (http://www.miataturbo.net/race-prep-75/singul%C3%A4r-motorsports-aero-wing-86624/)
I have to say I'm really upset with you for showing me that, I was just contemplating getting the Singular endplates to have for the future, and I was recently admiring MillsJ's COT setup, and this seems to blend both together. I think I'm gonna have a great Christmas!

Does singular make stuff continually, or small batches?
Late but...Singular is always coming up with good stuff and seem to stay ahead of any issues that may arise during product "proving". So unless this set-up develops some sort of major issue, I would imagine it to remain available at least until they come up with an even better design.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on December 07, 2015, 06:28:46 AM
So I've finally narrowed down the design concept for the modular, stow-able splitter. The shop is littered with bizarre shapes of cut-offs and "possibly" obsolete cardboard templates. Don't wanna chuck anything just yet in case I need to back-track on the R+D, if you know what I mean, i.e; screw-up.
The concept is to have a "static" mounted main plane attached under the car that allows street-ability and also acts as the mounting platform for the splitter/dam elements that can be stowed in the car and quickly/easily be attached/removed at the track....yes, I am living in a dream world.

The large mushroom is the static piece that will remain attached under the car
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01380.jpeg)

The forward section is the blade/dam section that will be the removable elements
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01381.jpg)

This is how the various elements will marry
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01383.jpg)

Front shot of the blade/dam profile. The dam follows the horizontal profile of the stock MSM nose. Credit to jmills for this concept
This assembly will be divided into 4 sections that will fit inside the car.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01385.jpg)

All 1/2" 9 ply Baltic Birch with 1/8" POP108 bender ply dam that will be glassed over
Now to figure out the mounting, attaching, element marrying etc...i.e;... the fun stuff.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on December 07, 2015, 01:57:57 PM
Cool design and good progress!  Are the two pieces going to just "friction" fit or are they going to be attached to each other?

The mounting part is a little tricky.  Good luck and keep us updated.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on December 07, 2015, 04:58:03 PM
I am doing fastening R+D today. First up will be t-nuts/ button head socket. I'm going to try and make up my own SEMS type bolt that attaches the elements to the static piece from the bottom.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on December 07, 2015, 06:51:24 PM
My front air dam is held to the splitter with t-nuts .  The t-nuts are on the bottom of the splitter.  There is an L bracket on top of the splitter that fits behind the air dam.  A bolt goes down from the top to secure the L bracket.  Another bolt secures the air dam to the L bracket.

That was confusing sounding.  Here is a picture of the top side of the splitter.  The aluminum tubing acts to stiffen the outter edges of the splitter.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/album361/P1020411.jpg)

and the bottom side.  My dive planes and turn buckle mounts also attach to t-nuts on the bottom of the splitter.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/album361/P1020383.jpg)

While I am thinking about it, I took a router to the bottom edge of the splitter so that it would hopefully "bounce" off an object instead of catching and the edge and delaminating.  It seems to have worked so far.  Right now, the splitter is a little low and about 2.75" and it will scrape the ground under heavy braking.  It has sanded the bottom front edge, but hasn't really damaged it other than it looks like someone took sandpaper to it. 

If you are going to glass it, this may not be an issue.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on December 07, 2015, 06:59:51 PM
Understood...it all looks so simple once it's painted black.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: SilverMiataRacer on December 07, 2015, 08:03:26 PM
I can testify to Joe's splitter hitting the ground under braking.  I was standing watching him come into turn 5 at Roebling Road and could see under the front edge of the car until he braked and then it was nothingness!!   :laugh:


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on December 07, 2015, 09:46:38 PM
I'm just doing my part to scrape marbles off the track.   ;D ;D ;D

It doesn't scrape coming into 5, but it is VERY close.  It hits under braking at the end of the straight and it also hit twice this weekend in a corner when I had an  :shockeyes: moment.  It will be interesting see where the underneath is scarred on the edges since it scrapped when the car was loaded in a corner and not under braking.  It happened once near pit entry in turn 9 under acceleration when the car seemed to get a mind of it's own and go into a 4 wheel drift.  I would rather not repeat that stunt again at 95+  mph

The splitter is  lower than it used to be, but I need to fix it.  3" works fine, ~2.75" is too low.  It's distracting to hear it hit and I'm not braking as hard to protect it.  I did read somewhere that people had put small delrin strips on the underneath side of the splitter so it wouldn't stall when it contacted the ground.  It sounded like when the splitter hits the ground (under braking), it would lose it's downforce and the nose would raise up.  The downforce would then cause it to hit again and you would get a bouncing effect.  I did notice that it would hit twice under braking, but I think that was more a result of inconsistent braking than anything else.   


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: SilverMiataRacer on December 07, 2015, 09:53:51 PM
Point one is if the splitter wasn't hitting going into 5 it was so close you couldn't have run over ant poo without touching it!!! :laugh:

Instead of Delrin strips why not get titanium blocks like the F1 guys have on the bottom of the car?  At least you could put on a show to keep us non-drivers entertained!!!


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: 04TitaniumGrayPhilly on December 07, 2015, 10:57:14 PM
Any advantages to the wood vs something like Alumalite? Reason I ask is a few local buddies run Alumalite splitters, strong enough to stand on, but much lighter than the plywood.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on December 08, 2015, 02:13:53 AM
At this stage of the R+D, wood suits my purposes much better. Easier to work with, as that's my trade, and  trying to adapt to the MSM nose presents a particular challenge that most other miatas do not.You can get a GV or similar lip to make the transition between the bumper and the splitter where as there is nothing for the MSM nose. I've got 3 different versions of urethane miata lips that I looked at trying to morph to fit the MSM nose to no avail. I did stumble across one that may be an option for you non-track guys out there (I'll get some pics). With wood I can easily epoxy stuff together, or back together, if needed. Once the design is finalized and tested proven the wood can be used as master templates for different material options. Alumalite or Dibond may then be viable options but at this stage the cost/workability of those materials doesn't pencil on an as yet, un-proven design.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on December 08, 2015, 01:11:34 PM
I believe a number of people have used Alumalite for the splitter, but that wasn't in the cards for me at the time either.  Wood was just easier to work with.

Back to the splitter scrapping.  These are some pictures from last year.  The bottom of the splitter was 3" off the ground and the leading edge of the splitter extends 4" past the front of the MSM front lip.  I have 550 lbs springs in the front.  This picture is braking at turn 4 at Roebling.

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/album361/Splitter_under_braking.jpg)

Same weekend, but a picture of the car loaded in a corner.  The sides of the splitter extend out the side enough for the dive planes to cover the 225/45/15 tires. (Turn 5)
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/album361/Splitter_under_cornering.jpg)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on December 08, 2015, 02:26:11 PM
Some High-wear rub strips might not be a bad idea there, if just to keep the splitter from stalling/scraping. I have  them designated for my build but we'll get to that  once I get a little further along in the build.
   Any thoughts about upping your spring rates to eliminate some of the dive/roll you have going on there? I'm running 750/fr with some bump stop shimming to fine tune out some wheel rub issues. I'll have to arrange for some pics/videos similar to those when I start my testing or arrange  some  lead /follow GoPro footage from someones rear bumper. Valuable data there...
  What provisions have you made to prevent the back-side of the garden edging from chaffing the MSM nose? Did you put some foam gasket on it or what? What kind of gap do you have going on there or do you have it jammed tight against the nose?


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on December 08, 2015, 02:41:10 PM
I might put some rub strips on the underneath side since we won't be going back to the track for a couple of months.  I haven't really thought about how to attach them, since they would need to be pretty secure. 

I've thought about different spring rates, but raising the splitter a 1/4" or so is easier.  Maybe one day, but that is a project for a later time. 

The nose protection was easy.  The top of the air dam is resting against the lower part of the bumper.  I figured the bumper would help support the top edge of the air dam since there is probably a pretty good amount of force there.  I used the soft side of Velcro on the back side of the air dam.  I bought the Velcro that was adhesive and just stuck it on there.  It has stayed for the 1+ year and hasn't scratched the bumper.

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/album361/P1020373.jpg)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on December 08, 2015, 02:43:38 PM
This is a shot of where the air dam touches the bumper.

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/album361/photo12_001.jpg)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on December 10, 2015, 02:16:48 AM
A little more physical progress today. Mocked up the 4 elements that will comprise the modular portion of this design concept.  I needed to confirm that they could fit in the car and they do! All 4 elements will nest together and fit on the parcel shelf behind the seats/harness bar, without contacting the underside of the top to avoid any tear/puncture/abrasion issues. There's actually room to spare so I have the option to go to 4" projection from the 3" I have now. In the interest of full disclosure, it was supposed to be 4" but I screwed up on the first template, and forgot to make the correction on the second one, and failed to rectify that before I cut the wood. Once I get the thing put together, it will be easy to replicate any of the individual pieces of each element so changing the projection to 4" or more will be easy.
  Anyway... Here's a pic of the 4 elements as they will sit when attached to the static mount.

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01386.jpg)

And the 4 pieces nested for stowing

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01387.jpg)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: mr_hyde on December 10, 2015, 06:41:44 AM
I'm at about 2.75" on 700# front springs and I have just accepted that the splitter is going to self clearance.  There are 3 places where this is aggressive enough to get my attention while driving although it happens on many other corners.  1 is the Corkscrew at Laguna where the left front is grinding pretty hard.  The 2nd (reference is probably only of interest to Joey) is dropping down into 8a at The Ridge which is also hard on the front left but does scrape the entire nose.  The 3rd is The Ridge's version of the Corkscrew (T14) which is slow enough that it doesn't concern me.

In those 3 areas, I'm not too concerned with the splitter making contact and stalling because they are all slow enough or scraping under a tremendous amount of compression that is making front end grip a non-factor.  Kudos to Joe and Joey on their aero work with the 'street' cars.  If this had been developed 4 or 5 years ago, I'm not sure '90MSM would have been built.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on December 10, 2015, 07:28:06 AM
I suppose you're right now that I think about. Stalling at slow to moderate speeds when the front end is already loaded is moot. Initial testing with the static section, when I was pursuing the original "Receiver" design, showed some potential areas of concern that I may have to modify with some high-wear UHMW or similar material to protect the mating/mounting area from potential "Subway curb" contact.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on December 10, 2015, 02:23:18 PM
There are a lot of variables on whether you scrape the splitter.  It really is going to be a case by case situation, but I think the height and the how far it extends past the nose of the car have the most affect.  I think it will come down to experimenting and adjusting.  

The biggest danger with parking lot curbs isn't scraping, but hitting the splitter straight on and shoving it rearward.  There is really no way to protect against that other than just parking carefully and paying attention.  I have found my splitter holds up great to downforce, but the mounts don't like a direct rearward force.  That is somewhat by design since I want the splitter to detach before the whole front of the car in the event of an off where it digs in.  I just have to be careful when parking with the splitter installed.  

Hyde-what are you using as supports/turnbuckes to support the leading edge of the splitter?  Do you have any issues of bending them when you scrape the splitter hard?  I have aluminum rods acting as turnbuckles.  I have bent them a number of times when I have smacked the underneath pretty good.  It doesn't happen with normal scraping while on track track.  However, they will bend if I drop off a curb or something similar and have more of an impact with the ground.  They are easy enough to bend back straight, but just looking at other thoughts.  I know some have used metal cables so there is upward flex.  


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on December 10, 2015, 02:50:59 PM
 mills, poking around the shop I stumbled across some of those mini hood strut type shocks. I'm toying with the idea piercing them so they slide effortlessly and using them. They will retract easily but have a hard stop extended. Finding the proper length may be an issue however...and rust.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on December 10, 2015, 04:08:58 PM
It just hit me how you could do cables and still retain the turnbuckle adjustability.  A couple of months ago, we installed cable guardrails on the back of our porch.  The cable goes into a crimp type connector on one end, but it is threaded on the other end.  The threaded part screws into the swivel base that screws to the vertical posts on the porch.  See the link below:

http://www.atlantisrail.com/raileasy-tensioner (http://www.atlantisrail.com/raileasy-tensioner)

You could attach the cable in one end via the crimp connector (the right side of the assembly in the link above), unscrew it from the swivel base and screw the adjustor into a male version of my eye type connector below. 

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/album361/P1010899.jpg) 

The U bracket is secured to the splitter via T nuts and then a clevis pic holds the two together. 

I think this might actually work pretty well.  Every I load the car onto the trailer, I have to disconnect the turnbuckes and have had to straighten then numerous times from splitter contact with the ground.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on December 10, 2015, 05:56:01 PM
Good idea! I was envisioning those ugly cable clamps and a bunch of frayed steel cable ends. Clean is nice!


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on December 10, 2015, 08:07:06 PM
Atlantis sells stainless steel cable or I have a decent amount of extra lying in the garage waiting to do the upstairs porches.  If you go that route, I can cut you some pieces and send them to you.  Amazon is the cheapest place to get the tensioners.  The cable is pretty.   :)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: mr_hyde on December 12, 2015, 05:58:06 AM
My splitter only extends about 4" in front of the air dam and it get vertical support from the air dam itself so I don't run front supports any more.  I have a few pictures of the car at triple digits and I don't see it flexing down.  The wood is hardware grade 1/2" birch.  There are vertical supports at 6 other points (3 bilateral).  Rods down from the radiator support, straps from the frame to the corners and two M6 bolts tapped into the subframe.

The Subway curb Joey referenced was a lunch trip I took years ago when the MSM was still on duty.  I got absent minded and rammed the curb breaking my TDR splitter loose.  I couldn't fix it with the materials on hand so I ran the rest of the day without it.  At 140mph, the nose was noticeably lighter.   :shockeyes:


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on December 14, 2015, 03:51:02 AM
Update; Air dam, Epoxy/cure/clean/sand x2, add Glass, repeat. Should be ready to fit/drill/t-nut and then cut tomorrow. Spent epoxy cure time fine tuning splitter portion so L+R are mirror images profile wise to make future replication simpler. It also makes measuring for the cut/angle of the outer elements more accurate. Still need to layout and jig (for welding) the 3/4 x 3/4 x.120 square tube aluminum bracing for the static portion and sort out the attachment hardware. Started on the aluminum rod supports but discovered that the Harbor Freight $19 Tap+Die sets are junk. Metric isn't metric and standard isn't standard, however they both seem to fit in the trash can just fine...go figure.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: mr_hyde on December 14, 2015, 06:19:20 AM
At least you can get to Online Metals before you finish your morning coffee.  I always but my tap/die tools one piece at a time from Ace Hardware.  I had a HF set and the metal I was trying to cut usually chewed it up.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on December 20, 2015, 01:49:31 AM
Made a fair amount of progress this week. Building with "future replication" in mind is a little more time consuming than a one-off, but may pay off down the road.

Static board with mock-up bracing. Cutouts at the rear to clear the stock under tray vents.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01389.jpg)

3/4 x3/4 x .120 Aluminum channel jigged and ready to be welded
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01391.jpg)

Static board mounted and left side elements. Threaded support rods just barely clears the radiator ducting components. With a slight modification, the fore wheel well liners will fit as well.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01392.jpg)

The 4 main front elements, ready to be mounted. Note the holes towards the rear of each element.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01395.jpg)

If you look close, you can see the t-nuts for the bolts that go thru the element holes to attach them to the static board
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01397.jpg)

A couple of shots of the assembled elements. Design lends toward self-location +/- 1/16"
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01399.jpg)

The gap between the elements will be as close to zero as I can get it. The joints still need to be fine tuned a bit, and the ends epoxied and glassed
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01400.jpg)

 This shows the basic design concept in a nutshell
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01401.jpg)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on December 20, 2015, 03:18:02 PM
Very nice!  I like the design and think it will work well. Yours is also prettier than mine.   ;D

Just curious- is the support rod through bolted to the splitter?  I have a washer and nut on either side of the splitter. I'll post a pic later on what I did. My support rod is actually two pieces connected by a coupler. The bottom rod is about 3" long. I did it this way so I could fairly easily adjust the height of. The splitter by altering how much it screws into the coupler. Jam nuts keep it secure.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on December 20, 2015, 04:56:19 PM
The rod assembly is still under development. I still have the stock under tray and as you know the rod actually bi-sects thru the under tray as it passes thru the frame holes on either side of the radiator. My thoughts are to T-nut/jam nut the rod at the splitter, pass it thru the frame rails and put some sort of adjuster/stop nut set-up at the top, next to the rad. That would allow the splitter to deflect upwards but not downwards and jam some foam between the chin spoiler and the static board to maintain some sort of tension so it doesn't rattle around. The rod will be aluminum but only threaded at the ends so it can slide thru the frame rail/undertray effortlessly and not "saw" like all-thread would.
  Thinking about your Atlantis cable idea. I'm going down to the Marine supply store to spec out the components. Gotta see if there's a way to make a Quick disconnect, adjustable assembly that's no longer than @ 10" that still has enough cable length to make if flex. Mine will have to removed from both the car and splitter for stowing. Still pondering the discharged gas spring design as well...we'll see.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on December 21, 2015, 10:15:09 PM
I was poking around this evening and found these cable terminations. I think would work better than the Atlantis ones.
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Wire-rope-swage-terminals_749259498.html?spm=a2700.7724857.29.109.m0vRhx (http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Wire-rope-swage-terminals_749259498.html?spm=a2700.7724857.29.109.m0vRhx)

These are in the states.
https://www.grainger.com/category/wire-rope-and-fittings/material-handling/ecatalog/N-muu (https://www.grainger.com/category/wire-rope-and-fittings/material-handling/ecatalog/N-muu)

Maybe those aren't the best option due to price.  :o. At least something to think about. I think I want to go cables instead of the aluminum rods. It would be less upkeep.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on December 22, 2015, 12:22:23 AM
 The Alibaba items look promising. I'm sure if we search a little more we should be able to beat that "you want how much?" Grainger pricing, they're the worst. Everything is full MSRP, if not more, with them. Good find, now I've got something to do in the wee hours of the morning...


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on December 22, 2015, 01:54:08 AM
I haven't looked but Fastenal or McMaster Carr might have some options.

I like the design with an eye fitting on the end. It would work well to quickly disconnect. It's what I have now and it literally takes about 5 seconds to remove each front rod.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on December 27, 2015, 12:24:01 PM
Details, details...the devil's in the details. Support rod/cable mount points/geometry. Drop/Support rod adjustability and affixing. Re-size front element main plane protrusion from 3" to 4". Was able to get the aluminum brace tig welded and attached to the static board. Not quite as stiff as I had hoped but enough to continue and more than strong enough for road testing, which is still a little ways off. The jig survived so I can replicate the part with some minor changes which will add more ridgidity if needed.

Could be the start of the world's biggest MSM logo but is actually the support rod mounting plate  for the upper snout area, with the mounts attached
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01403.jpg)

The plate mounted in the upper snout, This helps with the geometry of the rod angle and also makes for a more stronger attachment than 2 independent brackets and keeps the snout opening "clean".
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01407.jpg)

Drop support rod adjuster. Knob to adjust height and wing-nut as a jam nut to lock knob in place. Passenger side shown. I came up with this design to eliminate the need for wrenches as there is no room for them on the drivers side due to the AC charge port and other stuff
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01404.jpg)

Drop support rod lower attachment. Flats machined on rod for 7mm wrench, jam nut, fender washer, rod threads into t-nut in the static board. If you look you can see the aluminum bracing. The problem with my design is that channel will flex laterally at the joint. Going to try welding a plate over the intersection to see if that fixes the problem. Not the end of the world but let's just call it a "Structural Learning Opportunity". I got lucky in that the rod just skates past the Radiator ducting elements on both the left and right sides
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01405.jpg)

Support rod geometry. Splayed outward to reach mid-point of the Front elements. These are the new front planes that protrude 4". The old ones only came out 2 7/8" which kinda limited the rod geometry which placed it too close to top edge of the air dam. I was able to replicate the shapes/hole placement of each element with a patterning router bit and a little creativity to add 1 1/8" to the front profile. Fit is 'almost" as perfect as the original pieces. I downsized the attachment holes a tad to allow for some anticipated fine tuning with a rasp.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01411_1.jpg)

The new planes also add a little more room for some sort of canard in front of the wheel...I'll sort that out after the initial road testing.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01413_1.jpg)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: '95MSM on December 27, 2015, 01:15:10 PM
Looking good! The last two pics in particular really show off the care you are putting into how this fits the car.

An alternative to machining flats in the link is to drill a small hole for a pin "wrench". I think the hole takes away a little less material than the flats, but since it penetrates all the way through it could be weaker. Any of our engineers out there care to run the numbers? :lol:


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on December 27, 2015, 07:34:28 PM
Thanks Mark,  my "zero tolerance" build ethic usually pays off in the end. I'm in for the engineering input on hole vs flats. I don't think 5/16 Aluminum rod has enough room for a pin strong enough enough to torque on.... we'll see what the engineering dept. has to say :laugh:


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on December 28, 2015, 10:23:00 PM
Looking good.   :mrgreen:

How do your rod support adjusters work?  I originally thought about doing the exact same thing, but never could figure out a good way to make it happen.  Did you use the same OEM holes that I did behind the headlight for the supports?  It looks like you did.  I see that you have nuts, washers, ect. on the top of the rod.  Do you also have a washer and nut on the bottom side of the hole?  In the below location.

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/album361/Rod_Support.jpg)

If the rod attaches to a T nut in the splitter, does it not just unscrew out of the nut when you turn the handle to raise the splitter?  I'm obviously missing something.

Looks like you got the front supports figured out.  I had to work with it for a while to get the top of the supports far enough forward to that they did not hit the lower leading edge of the snout.  I made some "protectors" to help spread the load if the splitter had a frontal impact and was shoved rearward.  My aluminum rods would bend, but at some point I think the lower snout would be damaged.  These may not help, but they make me feel better.   ;D

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/album361/P1020422.jpg)

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/album361/P1020392.jpg)

I cover them in red tape for the track so they aren't very obvious.

And you thought the radiator ducting had some tedious details to work through.  I think I would rather tackle another ducting project than another splitter project. ......maybe.  It's a tough call.   :D



Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: '95MSM on December 28, 2015, 11:47:19 PM
You're probably right on rod that small.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on December 28, 2015, 11:57:14 PM
Here's the Adjuster assy. The aluminum rod just passes thru the same holes you used. No nut on the bottom of the frame member like you have. The other end of the rod threads into a t-nut in the splitter and is secured with a Jam-nut, the red hardware in earlier pics. Theory is that the splitter can deflect upward but not downward because the rod can go up, but not down, because of the adjuster assembly.
 The basic components are two  5/16" fender washers, a 2" long piece of 1/2" copper pipe, a pass-thru plastic knob and a wing-nut. The copper pipe has a section of
fuel hole inserted into it, to center the rod inside it, and eliminate rattle. It also acts as a spacer to get the knob up high enough so it can be easily assessed. Have to make sure it's not to high though, otherwise it could contact the frame member directly above it under "deflection" mode. The pipe also keeps the threaded portion of the rod above where it passes thru the frame to prevent "sawing/binding" which was an issue with the all thread I was using during mock-up. The wing nut is used as a jam nut to lock the knob in place. Actually works pretty good as a "no tools required" set-up.
 Still working on the turnbuckle vs cable conundrum. Swaging those $$$ fittings to a cable that ends up being too short/long can get expensive in a hurry, so I'll wait until post R+D to make that decision and just go turnbuckle for now. Even with my upper snout plate there's not a whole lot of clearance to the MSM valance, but after upping the main-plane size to 4" I've got a good 1/2"~3/4" clearance there.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01421.jpg)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on December 29, 2015, 03:54:16 AM
The adjuster knob is very clever. My gears are turning on how to do something similar. I have the nut on the bottom of the hole in the frame because when I remove the splitter, I leave the rods in place. I only remove the bottom 3" of the rod so I don't hit them on something while driving around town. I'll have to think how I could secure the rod with no splitter or bottom nut.

From what I have found, the biggest danger is a frontal impact from an off or just pulling off the pavement onto the grass in the infield or parking area. However, this past event I did hit the underneath side where the rod attaches. I dropped a wheel off the inside of the track at the apex and there was a rut. I don't think there was any damage to the rod or splitter from the splitter being forced upward but I did file down the end of the rod and the nut. There is a nut on the bottom of the splitter securing the rod to the splitter. It took some effort to remove the nut but everything else survived.

I have had to straighten my front aluminum turnbuckle supports numerous times from being pushed upward.  Almost everytime they have been bent, it was away from the track.  Typically it is just driving around the infield.  The rut incident bent them the most severely, but they were easily fixed.

I think the cables would be an improvement. The Atlantis ends or similar do have adjustability at each end but you are correct that you would want to measure many times before you clamped it on the cable. I thought I had gotten one too short while doing the porch, but was just able to make it work. Seems as though the ones that I used had about 1/2" of adjustability on each end.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on December 29, 2015, 05:43:16 AM
Well the jury is still out on my Adjuster/Deflect-ability theory so.....Re; cables. I think it is probably the best solution in the end. I've looked at the various methods, SwageLok (push in/sorta re-useble, low "jerk" load), Swageless (Atlantis, Suncorr, etc.) Machine Swage, and Hand Swage. The challenge is to find the right combination of whatever brand/method that'll leave enough cable length to flex and still incorporate quick disconnect clevis ends with  turnbuckle type adjustability and make it all happen within the 10" between the car mount and the splitter mount. Most of the stuff I looked at is all 1/4-28 thread vs the 1/4-20 I've got going now. I think a trip to Spencer Aircraft may be in order as the Marine/Architectural products are way to spendy and overkill for what we need. Trying to piece it together on-line from various suppliers was making my brain hurt.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on December 29, 2015, 12:49:43 PM
I'll poke around too and see what I can come up with.  Aircraft Spruce is another supplier I have bought parts from.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/ha/index.html (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/ha/index.html)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on December 29, 2015, 10:34:14 PM
If you do a Google search for "swageless terminal" and click on the images tab, you will come up with all sorts of potential options.  I haven't had time to see if I can find a cheap(ish) option, but these appear to be a good option.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: '95MSM on January 01, 2016, 12:10:51 AM
I've seen braces on a sports racer somewhere that appeared to be adjustable to a fixed length but actually had a few inches of compress-ability built-in for exactly the reasons you are considering cables. The owner could probably be talked into discussing the construction if the SCCA would cover their collective tech ears & eyes.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on January 01, 2016, 12:50:33 AM
I've seen braces on a sports racer somewhere that appeared to be adjustable to a fixed length but actually had a few inches of compress-ability built-in for exactly the reasons you are considering cables. The owner could probably be talked into discussing the construction if the SCCA would cover their collective tech ears & eyes.

Does he live close to Idaho?


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: '95MSM on January 02, 2016, 04:14:25 AM
Not at the moment.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on January 03, 2016, 02:24:51 AM
Got the epoxying, sanding and painting done and ready for re-assembly/installation. Made an attempt to address weak point in the bracing which in turn turned up another weak point...fine for R+d at this point. Still needs to come off a couple of more times to make a few adjustments and put the mud guards back in. I think the drop rod is going to go right thru the brake cooling hole in the mud guard without having to modify it, wether I can re-attach the rod with the guard in place remains to be seen....

Pics of the 2-piece "elements" ready for re assembly. T-nuts in the white "plane" align the air-dam
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01422.jpg)

I thought about painting it all black but decided on Gloss white for everything but the air dam. Makes it easier to see so I'm not ramming my shins into it, easier to mark on if I need to make any changes and if something falls off on the track, it won't blend in with the asphalt, making it easier for fellow drivers to avoid running over it.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01423.jpg)

The "static" main plane with bracing installed. Bottom edge has a healthy "faired bevel" on it to promote skipping rather than digging in, the element planes have the same treatment.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01424.jpg)

The weak spot in the bracing, the channel was "opening up" allowing "x" amount of to flex occur. Added the gusset to box the channel. but then one of the vertical welds failed. gonna have to re-think materials/lay-out and design a better welding jig. first attempt didn't quite come out as straight/flat as I had anticipated. Good enough for initial testing though.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01425.jpg)

And finally some shots of everything assembled.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01426.jpg)

A coupe of more on-off for some minor details and it's ready to test...that is after I clean up the shop enough to get it out the door.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01427.jpg)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on January 03, 2016, 02:54:09 AM
I used square aluminum tubing for the bracing. I'm not sure if it is any stiffer than the channel but just a thought. My splitter is not as stiff as I would have liked but my wheel covers/dive planes do help support the sides.

Looking good!


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: '95MSM on January 03, 2016, 03:48:06 AM
My experience with welded aluminum braces on race cars has been almost uniformly bad. The aluminum adjacent to the weld is very prone to cracking - you just wind up chasing cracks constantly. You might consider replacing the aluminum with thin wall steel tube - much more durable. From force of habit, I use 4130 from Aircraft Spruce. Chrome-moly is overkill, but Aircraft Spruce stocks it in a boatload of sizes and I know it will be excellent quality as opposed to mild steel tubing.

If you need to reinforce a brace intersection, I see round gussets used quite a lot. Braze or weld a silver dollar sized gusset right over the "X", flat against the tubing.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on January 03, 2016, 07:55:30 AM
I thought I'd try "adding lightness" by going with the Aluminum, plus I had it laying around,  but it's not a stiff as I thought. I think you're right about going to steel tube. It may weigh a little more but at least it will do the job it's intended for. Kind of married to a 3/4" max height to keep the static board as high as possible for ground clearance concerns so do you think 3/4" x 3/4" x.060 wall would be stout enough...or at least stiffer than the Alum channel?


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: '95MSM on January 03, 2016, 11:13:18 AM
I would say 1/2" in ~ .050" would be sufficient based on the nose frame of the Royale carrying all of the aero load plus the radiator.

Switching gears back to aluminum for a moment - I did some tub repairs years ago and reinforced the corners with 6061 T6 extrusions from Metal Shorts. That material was very strong. I ran out and the second purchase was just a common extruded aluminum, more like 2024. If you can find the stiff stuff, aluminum can work if you don't stressed welds.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on January 03, 2016, 04:44:19 PM
Thanks Mark, I'll look into that T-6. Maybe changing the intersection to interlocking notch joints (dados) would help as well. My design has the forward splaying pieces oriented to skate past the ends of the stock chin spoiler and the intersection is right about where it needs to be the strongest. Oh well, back to the drawing board....


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on January 09, 2016, 08:44:22 PM
Off the jack stands and out for a little parking lot test. Came out @ 3/4 of an inch lower than I had "planned", but I can still raise it up @ 1/2" or so it think. Have to make sure the front is lower than the back "angle-wise". Still have to check the road clearance of the static board which I plan to do tomorrow AM, when there's no traffic...don't want someone behind me running over it if it falls off.


(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01428.jpg)

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01429.jpg)

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01430.jpg)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on January 10, 2016, 06:33:19 PM
Just returned from the proving grounds and seems to have passed the "worst case scenario". tests. Plus it didn't fall off at 80 MPH...which is good. These tests were performed at the same location I tested the initial design mockup, which was a bit lower but didn't protrude forward quite as much, so I did have have some doubts as to how it would go today. Should be fine for most roadways/highway/freeway driving....now if I can just get it on and off the Ferry to The Ridge....

Here's the car with the front elements removed. It takes @ 4 minutes to install/remove the elements and support rods with all the stuff right there in front of the car, so I figure is @ a 10 minute project at the track.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/9999_G.jpg)

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/88_G.jpg)

Worst case scenario #1, dead-on approach. It clears with @3/8" to spare. I normally avoid these conditions anyway.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/77_G.jpg)

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/66_G.jpg)

The Goodman Racing test ramp. I discovered a couple of the local shops use this driveway for this exact purpose. The stock nose was gonna hit anyway. The board can deflect upwards @ 1/2" before it contacts the chin splitter thanks to adjustable support rod design. The Epoxy Coated Birch does an excellent of transmitting the scraping sounds to the chassis via the M6 bolts at the rear of the under tray. Again, I would never voluntarily approach these conditions head-on anyway, clears at an angle-approach however
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/33_G.jpg)

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/11_G.jpg)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: HELLIONMX5 on January 10, 2016, 07:46:01 PM
(https://2982-presscdn-29-70-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpg)

i haven't been on in a long time. i a, glad i came on today. sick in bed and stumbled upon this.

one question, why not use the tie down (baby teeth) to hold the front splitter on instead of the underside of the front bumper? is it going into something else?


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on January 10, 2016, 08:12:58 PM
Baby teeth are long gone. Removed for a tow hook and a high-flow mesh grill back in 2006. Not sure they would work anyway, you need a point high +forward for support rod geometry to clear the lower part of the snout and reach the main plane, hence my huge aluminum "M" upper snout adapter plate.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on January 10, 2016, 08:56:26 PM
Looks very promising!  How/where is the rear of the splitter attached?


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on January 10, 2016, 09:51:18 PM
Looks very promising!  How/where is the rear of the splitter attached?
Same place as yours, two m6 bolts that hold the under tray on, by the "vents".


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on January 11, 2016, 03:20:24 AM
I have been using nylon bolts there. Those tabs bend very easily if you bonk the splitter on something. I originally had metal bolts and had to bend the tabs back with a hammer after encounters with my ramp extensions. My extensions are wooden steps.  That being said, I broke both nylon bolts at the last event and lost one of my pcv spacers.  Surprisingly, the splitter is still very secure with both rear bolts missing.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on January 11, 2016, 07:13:35 AM
 I'm running a 4-point mount, which is what I thought you had as well. The 2 drop rods at the front and the 2 M6 at the rear.  Do you have another mount point I somehow missed, other than your Canard/spat attachments? I'm not running any spacers at the rear. I notched around the vents to get the board up as high as possible and preserve as much rake as I can. I leveled the car and read the board rake after testing and I'' at @ 1 deg down at the front
 It's going up  on the alignment rack at a buddy's race shop soon and we'll be taking a look at possibly adding some nutserts to the frame somewhere. He loaned me the tool but the car wasn't high enough to get it in there. I'm more of the mind that I'd rather have the thing mounted so strongly that it digs in like a shovel blade or disintegrates rather than coming loose and breaking away at the slightest "nudge". I thought briefly about the "jamming it into the front of the crossmember" method but i would have to ditch the undertray for that application and I didn't want to change the "known" cooling matrix until I can see what, if any, changes the splitter itself may/may not have on the cooling.
Just curious, what are you pinch weld heights?  I'm at 4.75" front/ 5~5.125 Rear. I was a little higher (@ 3/8") when I was running the 17's but lost some height when I went to the 15"/Nittos setup. I've also probably got a little spring sag on my 3 year old 750/400 Hypercos. I had to add 7/16" bump stop shim at he front to keep the Nittos away from the liners. Thinking about possibly upping my spring rate all around but will wait to see what the rack says.
  I know that you are running spacers at the rear but when I tried that the back was lower than the front so I had to notch out the vents to get it up higher. You must have a higher ride height or your splitter is way lower than mine. With my front elements installed I only have @ 3.25" clearance Front/center.



Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on January 11, 2016, 07:26:13 AM
OK...next, seeing as how reducing underhood pressure could potentially reduce lift, hood vents should qualify as Aero, correct? So the question is, will allowing the hot underhood air to exit the hood in front of my FM AIRBOX, just send the heat to the base of the windshield, only to be sucked into the intake? If so ...that sucks.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on January 11, 2016, 02:11:37 PM
You are correct that I am running 4 attachment points.  The two drop rods and then the two attachment points in the rear by the vents.  I've gone back and forth (as well as many in the aero threads) about which is better-breakaway or rigid mounting.  Bad things can happen with either arrangement, so just keep it on the track.   ;D

I'll have to check my pinch heights, but I think I am about 12.5"f/12.75"r fender to center of rim.  I might be .25" lower, but I don't remember.  I have the 17" rims on at the moment, but will measure today.  Of course it it will be lower with the Nitto's.  My spiltter was originally set at 3" from the ground to the bottom of the splitter.  This seemed like a good height and it was easy to measure with (2) 2"x4" boards stacked.  Call it a height of convenience.  It was about .25" lower at the last event and that is too low with my set-up. 

I forgot....are you running an oil cooler and if so, where is it?

I had to laugh at your vented hood question.  Nothing like fixing one problem to complicate another one.  My guess is that the the hot air escaping would mix with ambient air and not make much of a difference.  IAT's might be elevated a little, but I bet it isn't much.  Maybe you could engineer come way for the hot air to be channeled away from your intake box as it escapes.   :mrgreen:


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on January 14, 2016, 01:00:16 AM
No, I'm not running an oil cooler. I've only had two major "offs" so far. My first was as a passenger (see Avatar) on my very first day of track driving at Thunderhill. My second was at Infineon when I mowed @200' of dandelions coming down from the top of the hill, so I've had a pretty good run of luck....so far.
One more little splitter installation mod and major progress on the hood vents.

Homemade SEMS bolts with custom Knurling for extra grip. These are what attach the front elements. Washer is tapped so it threads on, keeps all the bits together but kinda hard to grip/turn with my fingers, hence, the knurling.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01436.jpg)

Used a laser to mark the Centerline and the post radiator location for measuring/layout ref. points. The "tool" with the pencils in it was used to transfer the bracing layout to the top of the hood.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01437.jpg)

Used the FM hood pressure data and gridded out the top of the hood. Front edge of the louvers was placed right along the post-radiator line. This location keeps the rear outer corner of the louvers from running up against the upward contour of the hood.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01439.jpg)

I drilled and bolted thru the rivet holes as I did not want to have to do this step on a newly painted hood
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01442.jpg)

Unfortunately the bracing is in pretty much the exact wrong place. This is the bracing you would have to remove for the Singular vents, because they protrude below the plane of the hood and usually are mounted from below. I chose the RunCools because they sit above the hood and I prefer the retro look.. Simple matter of "Swiss Cheesing" the bracing for airflow. Not quite the same airflow #'s the Singulars have but better than nothing. Not really keen on cutting out all that bracing.
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01443.jpg)

All cut, drilled, de-burred and ready to prep for painting. Gonna send this out to a professional, learned my lesson on the trunk lid...
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01444.jpg)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on January 14, 2016, 03:33:36 AM
Looks good. I actually looked at the local salvage yard today for a spare hood. I'd be good to go if I had an NA. Oh well.  Keep the pics coming of the vents.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: m3fan4ever on January 14, 2016, 02:27:34 PM
Why not install the hood vents and have them painted with the hood?


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on January 14, 2016, 04:14:57 PM
Why not install the hood vents and have them painted with the hood?
Paint will crack where they meet, expansion and contraction are in play here....


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: 04TitaniumGrayPhilly on January 19, 2016, 01:10:37 AM
Nice choice on the louvres. I don't know if it's been updated anywhere on their site, but I actually got my Singular vents, and they too now use rivets to hold in place. Curious to see how this comes out. Any tips for cutting the hood? I'll be installing my Singular NC ones on the MSM pretty soon.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on January 19, 2016, 02:42:47 AM
Rivets eh? Do they run them around the entire perimeter? The RunCools are @ 1~1.25" apart.
    My hood was destined for the body shop so my conditions were a little more forgiving. I don't know if Singular is providing a template for the NC 's on an NB hood or not but I do know that the underhood bracing  is going to be in the way because their construction protrudes below the plane of the hood. So as far as placement you may be on your own.
   As far as cutting goes, I started with a 1" hole saw at the corners and then used a 4 1/2" grinder with a thin SAIT disc to connect the holes. You have to be mindful of the heat build-up as it will make the aluminum buckle and too much may permanently buckle the hood. I just did the "a little here, a little there, switch to the other hole, repeat" method.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: mr_hyde on January 19, 2016, 07:51:28 AM
I put my vents in with aluminum rivets.  They don't corrode, are easy to work with, easy to drill out if you need to change something and a hood vent doesn't need to have structural strength.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on January 19, 2016, 04:25:06 PM
My hood louvers came with BLACK aluminum rivets....super custom!


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: 04TitaniumGrayPhilly on January 20, 2016, 02:15:25 PM
Rivets eh? Do they run them around the entire perimeter? The RunCools are @ 1~1.25" apart.
    My hood was destined for the body shop so my conditions were a little more forgiving. I don't know if Singular is providing a template for the NC 's on an NB hood or not but I do know that the underhood bracing  is going to be in the way because their construction protrudes below the plane of the hood. So as far as placement you may be on your own.
   As far as cutting goes, I started with a 1" hole saw at the corners and then used a 4 1/2" grinder with a thin SAIT disc to connect the holes. You have to be mindful of the heat build-up as it will make the aluminum buckle and too much may permanently buckle the hood. I just did the "a little here, a little there, switch to the other hole, repeat" method.
I emailed with Ryan and he said to line up the cutout for the NC hump to the front of the NB hump and that would position them correctly. Yes, a bunch of bracing will have to get cut out, but the driver's side hole will be right over the turbo (not over the air intake for it) so that should help extract some heat from it as well.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on January 20, 2016, 04:32:14 PM
Right above the turbo? Did you move your turbo to the front of the engine somehow? I believe right above the stock turbo location is way too far back, higher pressure zone. Google miata hood pressures and you'll see that they should be way farther forward to take advantage of the low pressure areas to evacuate  air at speed. I think that's why the Singular NB hood vent trifecta works so well, I just am not fond of the look or the bracing removal...but to each his own.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: 04TitaniumGrayPhilly on January 20, 2016, 05:29:06 PM
Right above the turbo? Did you move your turbo to the front of the engine somehow? I believe right above the stock turbo location is way too far back, higher pressure zone. Google miata hood pressures and you'll see that they should be way farther forward to take advantage of the low pressure areas to evacuate  air at speed. I think that's why the Singular NB hood vent trifecta works so well, I just am not fond of the look or the bracing removal...but to each his own.
My EFR is top mounted and sits more forward than a Garrett style setup would. My coldside turbo inlet is basically as far forward as the front of the valve cover.

I'm a bit worried the NC louvres will be a bit tacky on the NB, but I just didn't care for the angular looking NB louvres. To each their own indeed. Loving the progress on your car so far!


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on January 20, 2016, 06:55:00 PM
Those NC's are huge! I did some googling and did see some nice looking NC~NB installs on some track cars, as well as a turbo set-up similar to yours running the NB's.  It just boils down to what look you like and how much bracing you wanna hack out.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on January 28, 2016, 01:57:23 AM
Ready for assembly. Paint came out so-so, a few contaminants and mica count ain't quite the same, depending on where you look/in what light. Could be worse, gonna be covered with splattered bugs soon so I'll live with it. Learning a fair amount about the frustrating world of body/paint this off-season...the hard way of course.

Hood all polished and ready to be scratched
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01459.jpg)

Shot of the cutout and the hood bracing
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01460.jpg)


Close-up of the Swiss-Cheese-ing of the brace. Painstakingly laid out and drilled with a step bit. Not quite the same wide open area as the Singulars but it should be better than nothing, and the hood bracing remains pretty much intact structuraly
(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01461.jpg)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on January 28, 2016, 01:23:18 PM
Looks good. Eagerly awaiting the results.  When are you hitting the track next to test out all the new upgrades?


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on January 28, 2016, 02:52:30 PM
Should be track ready in @ a week, then it's up to the weather. Like to get it out at least once before Feb 15th. Going under the knife to have a hernia fixed so that will kinda put a damper on things for a bit.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: mr_hyde on January 29, 2016, 07:52:45 AM
Call me if you find a date with moderately dry weather.  I need to shake '90MSM down since I haven't had a truly successful day in over a year and don't want to chase shadows again this season.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on January 30, 2016, 07:11:45 PM
February 13th at Pacific is target date for shakedown, as long as it's not pouring down rain.
So hood is done and installed. Paint is a pretty good match in shop light, we'll have to wait to see what it looks like in the sun. All in, I figure the cost of this project is a little north of $1k, hood; $300, Louvers; $200, Paint; $400 and @ 10 hours labor on my end. Quite happy with how it turned out. One thing about these projects is the "wow factor " of the finished product gets diluted by the number of times stuff get's mocked-up,repositioned, installed, un-installed etc.... but it's not like we can just click somewhere and order "1 Black Mica vented hood, installed please".

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01462.sized.jpg)

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01463.sized.jpg)

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/SplitterBuild/DSC01464.sized.jpg)


Title: Re:
Post by: Tickittyboo on January 30, 2016, 07:24:16 PM
Looks Great!


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on February 07, 2016, 04:27:28 AM
Test results are in. Rainy, cold,wet day at the track. Wing works great and did not fall off or deform the trunk lid..at least up to 110mph. That's about as fast as I felt comfortable going today, given the track conditions.  Small issue with a gasket I made to go between the wing bracket and the wing I will have to address. Either/and/or vibration, moisture, or airflow caused it to work it's way loose.
 Splitter worked great and also is good to at least 110 mph. No signs of movement or deflection and no scraping on the track. There was however a whisper of a skiff boarding the ferry. Turns out the cardboard Go-Nogo test was performed with the 17x7 wheels which are a little taller than the 15x8's that are on the car now. I think a diagonal loading approach would have cleared fine, but a little too close for comfort....so i'll have to come up with a fix somehow.
 Vented hood performed nicely and netted me cooler under hood temps. i have two lcd temp displays under the hood and "popping the hood post session" temps were down a good 20 deg. No issues with the pouring rain getting in there either. They also make for a nice place to warm your hands with the hood down!
All in all, I'd call this Aero Endeavor a 97% success. A few little bugs to work out and hopefully some better weather next weekend for some more testing. It's been a fun, mentally challenging project. Someday I may actually run the hard #$$...maybe....gotta pay to play!


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: mr_hyde on February 07, 2016, 08:02:35 AM
Outstanding results!  You will be glad you did that if you end up out at the track in an 85* day in July.  You will also quickly find the aero benefits when you go out in the dry.  It takes a long time to learn to trust it!


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on February 07, 2016, 02:00:32 PM
  The track/weather conditions were actually conducive to my particular  "what's gonna fly off at what speed" testing requirements. Lower car count and everybody's gotta run slower so I'm not holding anybody up while I tip-toe around the track anticipating possible catastrophic failure at any second. Those 85* days can't get here soon enough.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on February 07, 2016, 03:06:18 PM
 :mrgreen:  sounds like a great first session. I will second Hydes comment that it takes a while to learn to trust the aero and convince your brain that you aren't going to go flying off the track. I'm still not 100% there. My sense of self preservation keeps stepping in.  ;D


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on February 08, 2016, 12:53:47 AM
Pesky "will to live" has been impacting my lap times since day one. Might have something to do with my avatar pic...which is from day one!


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: mr_hyde on February 09, 2016, 01:50:48 AM
My sense of self preservation keeps stepping in.  ;D
Mine costs me at least 2 seconds a lap wherever I'm driving...   :(


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on April 07, 2016, 12:10:38 PM
Day two of testing completed last week. Pacific Raceways this time. I set the wing at 1* AOA. Splitter on holding up nicely. Car feels definitely more "planted". No oddball behavior noted i.e.; under/oversteer so that's good. Observations; firstly, I think I'm gonna need more torque(preferably)or HP, kinda running into a little bit of an "increased drag" issue on the front straight. Gonna try it again with the wing back at 0* AOA next time out. I think it will still be generating DF with the Gurney Flap at that angle.
 Secondly, on another note, first time out with the new Adjustable Hans Device set to 15*, way more comfortable than the fixed 20* versions I tried last season. Lastly, by new Bell Sport Mag is a little bit too snug. The next size up is way too loose so I may grind away a little of the styrofoam innards to relieve the pressure points. Smashing it down with a ball peen hammer in the pits offered some relief but need a more "dignified" solution than a hammer.
So how to get more HP/torque from the stock turbo/ECU...hmm, I wonder,where would one go for advice regarding my quandary....


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: SilverMiataRacer on April 07, 2016, 12:18:12 PM
millsj has also noted a loss of straightaway speed with the aero but has been able to steadily decrease his lap times as he trusts the aero more and more.  More HP on the straight would be nice to overcome the drag but there is a lot of laptime to be had by working on the turns.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on April 07, 2016, 02:33:04 PM
And the slippery slope continues.   ::)

When I first installed the aero, I lost about 5 mph down the straight.  Roebling is a high speed track and I am approximately 100-105 mph when I get straight exiting corner 9 heading down the straight.  I used to top out at 125 mph.  I have since gained about 3 mph back on the straight due to faster corner speeds in turn 9.  If I remember correctly, laps times were about the same with the lower top speeds, but are now faster with the gained confidence in cornering speeds.  The car still has more speed, but I don't have the nerve at the moment.  Large slip angles at 100 mph is not my comfort level.   :o

At the last event, I had messed with the front splitter (lowered it) and I ended up with a loose car.  I dialed in a little more wing, which fixed the oversteer issue, but it did drop my top speed on the straight.  I think you will find that small changes in the wing or splitter will make a difference in handling and drag.

I'd agree with SMR that you probably have more time in improved driving (comfort level with the aero) than you will by reducing drag.  If the car is pretty neutral, I'd be temped to leave the aero alone and work on gaining confidence and push the envelope slowly in the corners.  Just don't push too hard since the consequences of an off are now much greater.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: 04TitaniumGrayPhilly on April 07, 2016, 04:50:14 PM
All the more reasons not to add aero (and more confusion and factors) to my car right now.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: millsj on April 07, 2016, 05:32:51 PM
When you are new (and even experienced) in the track driving world, the best money you can spend is on seat time.  The biggest mod performance wise if to yourself. 


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: '95MSM on April 08, 2016, 01:44:56 AM
You guys are getting it figured out.

I was just reading about the LMP1 rules changes for next year. They are taking away power, and Porsche responded that the cars will be slower in the corners as a result. Why? The fastest lap requires a critical balance of power to downforce to drag. Decrease power and the cars need to be trimmed out for less drag to get the best lap time. You get less drag by tuning out some aero.

Now go hire 40 engineers so you can compute the optimum balance at each track you drive. :) :) :) :)


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on April 08, 2016, 03:09:55 AM
 If cheap, easy HP was readily available I'd take it but the car has just been so darn reliable on the track for 9+ years I hate to mess with a good thing. This is one of the things I love about my approach to the Sport driving theater, the little bits that can be worked on with your brain from behind the wheel at speed. It's not all about lap times for me ....it's more about why it's my lap time. More time with the aero is definitely something I'm looking forward to working around/with.
 Talking with my mechanic at the shop today he asked if i'd gotten my tire temps...Doh! Could have possibly gotten some data there as well. However, seeing as how I just switched to NTO1/15"s at the end of last season, after 8 years on the 17"s, I don't really have any comprehensive data to compare against/with. Oh well, something else to dink with next time out.
I'll be posting a "Wanted, 40 engineers" ad on craigslist shortly....




Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: mr_hyde on April 10, 2016, 03:23:05 AM
Fortunately, Pacific will be the worst-case for your increased drag factor.  You should find that ORP has almost no drag penalty and a ton of downforce benefit.  The Ridge is the most fair between the two.  Portland will have a small drag penalty but isn't nearly as fast as Pacific or the Ridge.  Adding power is going down the rabbit hole.  Your car will start breaking and the mods to deal with more power all end up with a comma in the price tag.  Your formula works - stick with it!   :mrgreen:


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on April 10, 2016, 09:21:01 AM
Fortunately, Pacific will be the worst-case for your increased drag factor.  You should find that ORP has almost no drag penalty and a ton of downforce benefit.  The Ridge is the most fair between the two.  Portland will have a small drag penalty but isn't nearly as fast as Pacific or the Ridge.  Adding power is going down the rabbit hole.  Your car will start breaking and the mods to deal with more power all end up with a comma in the price tag.  Your formula works - stick with it!   :mrgreen:
Agreed, and point re; reliability well stated. A hardtop may be good for a little less drags well. Still debating whether I want to stick with the 3.9's or go back to the 3.63's. Have to look at the gear calculator again and see if there's any better pull there re; gearing...I dunno. Pretty much ran all of Pacific in 5th except 3rd~4th out of the T-3B hole and 6th thru T-1 with the 3.9's.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: '95MSM on April 11, 2016, 04:09:40 PM
Fortunately, Pacific will be the worst-case for your increased drag factor.  You should find that ORP has almost no drag penalty and a ton of downforce benefit.  The Ridge is the most fair between the two.  Portland will have a small drag penalty but isn't nearly as fast as Pacific or the Ridge.  Adding power is going down the rabbit hole.  Your car will start breaking and the mods to deal with more power all end up with a comma in the price tag.  Your formula works - stick with it!   :mrgreen:

Add Spokane County Raceway to your itinerary and every other Pac NW track will move down the rankings a notch. Most cars are at max velocity for 300 to 400 yards. Its a FAST race track. Plus free lodging an hour from the track.


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: joeereid on April 11, 2016, 06:55:38 PM
I'm familiar with that straightaway. You're right, Almost have time to check you phone for messages before the brake zone. I haven't been there in @ 7  years, before the county took over. Did they ever clean that place up? I seem to remember the only thing holding the tumbleweeds in the runoff areas was the huge boulders behind them....


Title: Re: Me and my Aero
Post by: '95MSM on April 15, 2016, 10:27:32 PM
The track got reconfigured slightly after the county bought it and in general the facilities are getting attention. I didn't notice a lack of runoff room, but I'll check more closely next time I'm there!