Mazda-speed.com

Supporting sponsors => Hydra Support and Questions => Topic started by: thomsoad on February 08, 2016, 09:07:34 PM



Title: Hydra restart after a long drive?
Post by: thomsoad on February 08, 2016, 09:07:34 PM
This has happened to me a few times now and only after a long continuous drive:
I find after i do about 150 miles of continuous driving (no breaks) when I turn the car off for a bit (say half an hour) the car wont even turn over til about 4-5 tries. All the lights and auxillary stuff light up just fine; but when i turn the ignition...nothing. All the stuff are stil on but its like im not even turning the ignition switch. This happened to me once on my 2 week PCH trip and just happened twice on my trip to Cali and back. Once again it only happens after i do about 2 hours of solid driving and after 4 or 5 attempts the car turns over no problem...anyone else experience this?
Now its possible that the power would also not come on but since i have done the alternator conversion I honestly dont know if power would be affected by this.


Title: Re: Hydra restart after a long drive?
Post by: rotorglow on February 08, 2016, 09:35:56 PM
Couple of thoughts:

If it has power, the Hydra lights the CEL when you turn the key to On. 

Have you changed your oil lately?  I once knocked the connector to the starter motor a little loose when I was changing the oil, and would have to reach in and jiggle it for the car to crank over.  It would be fine until I drove a little and it shook loose again.  Maybe you have something intermittent there.


Title: Re: Hydra restart after a long drive?
Post by: rstange1 on February 08, 2016, 09:39:19 PM
Never experienced anything like that. Not sure the Hydra could be the culprit in a case like this. If you're turning the key to the start position and the starter does nothing, I'd start looking for an electrical connection issue at the ignition switch, the starter or whatever connects the two. Sorry, I don't know enough about the starting system to be more help.


Title: Re: Hydra restart after a long drive?
Post by: thomsoad on February 08, 2016, 09:41:51 PM
Couple of thoughts:

If it has power, the Hydra lights the CEL when you turn the key to On.  

Have you changed your oil lately?  I once knocked the connector to the starter motor a little loose when I was changing the oil, and would have to reach in and jiggle it for the car to crank over.  It would be fine until I drove a little and it shook loose again.  Maybe you have something intermittent there.

Sorry Roto i modified my post midway thru your reply.
I dont know if power would be affected by this since ive done the alternator conversion.
And yes Ive changed my oil recently but my PCH trip was back in July and i have had no problem til last week...which were the only times ive done 2+ hours of continuous driving. And my car is a DD.


Title: Re: Hydra restart after a long drive?
Post by: rotorglow on February 08, 2016, 10:00:02 PM
The alternator conversion affects charging.  I can't see how it would stop the Hydra from lighting the CEL as a (welcome) indication that it has power.  

I'm with rstange.  My money is on a connection problem at (or related to) the starter.  Things can work loose in funny ways.


Title: Re: Hydra restart after a long drive?
Post by: thomsoad on February 08, 2016, 10:25:30 PM
The alternator conversion affects charging.  I can't see how it would stop the Hydra from lighting the CEL as a (welcome) indication that it has power.  

I'm with rstange.  My money is on a connection problem at (or related to) the starter.  Things can work loose in funny ways.

Ok. Since you two have never experienced this i will start checking connections. Thanx for the feedback. :)


Title: Re: Hydra restart after a long drive?
Post by: rstange1 on February 09, 2016, 02:36:58 AM
The intermittent nature of the problem will make troubleshooting a bit tricky.

Paraphrasing from the shop manual, following are the diagnostic steps for a "will not crank" condition. I'm surprised the last thing they suggest is 'replace PCM.' Hopefully you have something a little more civilized like a bad starter interlock switch connection on the clutch pedal. Best of luck!

Possible Cause:
  • Open starter circuit between ignition switch and starter
  • Bad starter interlock switch
  • Starter malfunction
  • Seized/hydrolocked engine (thankfully, we know that's not your root cause)

Diagnostic Procedure:
1. Verify following:
  • Battery connection
  • Clutch fully depressed
  • Fuses
If OK, go to next step; if not, fix & repeat.

2. Is click sound heard from starter when ignition switch turned to START?
If yes, go to next step; if no, go to step 4.

3. Inspect starting system.
If OK, check for hydrolocked engine; if no, service as required.

4. Do any other electrical accessories work?
If yes, go to next step; if no, inspect charging system.

5. Bla, bla, automatic transmission stuff...

6. Check for Diagnostic Trouble Codes.
If codes, fix, if none, inspect:
  • START circuit in ignition switch
  • Open circuit between ignition switch and starter
  • Starter interlock switch

7. Verify (DTC) test results.
- if OK, return to diagnostic index to service any other symptoms
- if malfunction remains, check service bulletins and online repair info
     - if repaired, you're done
     - if not or additional diagnostic info, replace PCM (!)



Title: Re: Hydra restart after a long drive?
Post by: jp_buyitol on February 09, 2016, 04:43:31 AM
I had a very similar experience and also was thinking Hydra but after putting it in gear and bumping the flywheel just enough to nudge the starter, it would usually crank.  I ordered a new starter motor at 50k and it has never happened again. 


Title: Re: Hydra restart after a long drive?
Post by: joeereid on February 09, 2016, 05:30:32 AM
So to further summarize repair procedure...Check stuff to see if you can fix it. If you can, you're done. If you can't, replace Permanently Crippled Miata.


Title: Re: Hydra restart after a long drive?
Post by: Chrisbee on February 11, 2016, 05:38:27 AM
I would think that if was an ECU issue, it would have a crank no start issue. I would check the easy stuff first. Maybe just replace the starter relay just because it's cheap, and I've seen relays give problems after heat cycling. If it has a click when trying to start, I'd say starter, or loose cable connection at starter, or battery.


Title: Re: Hydra restart after a long drive?
Post by: thomsoad on February 11, 2016, 11:34:05 AM
Thanks for the responses everybody.
Sounds like the good new is it isnt the Hydra.
And seems the likely culprits are either the starter relay or the starter itself.
Since the relay is the cheaper of the two I think Im gonna start there.
Never bothered with one before and got a good idea where it is .... but if someone could post a pic of its location Id appreciate it.  :)


Title: Re: Hydra restart after a long drive?
Post by: SilverMiataRacer on February 11, 2016, 11:40:49 AM
Don't forget wiring issues.  Make sure the connections to the starter are tight

BTW according to the wiring diagram there is no starter relay.  There is the starter, the starter interlock switch, the ignition switch and wiring and electrical connections.

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/album38/starter_wiring.jpg)


Title: Re: Hydra restart after a long drive?
Post by: jp_buyitol on February 11, 2016, 07:08:51 PM
The following was Jeremy's reply to me a couple of years ago when I had the similar issue and found it to be the starter:

 
The Hydra has nothing to do with the ignition switch or the starter, that line comes straight from the battery & the solenoid straight from the ignition. Also, the immobilizer is out of the picture with the stock ECU unplugged.  Sounds to me like a starter solenoid but there’s only one way to know for sure.
 
Might try a running car with jumper cables to your battery if it gives you trouble again in case your battery is low on amperage.
 


Title: Re: Hydra restart after a long drive?
Post by: thomsoad on February 12, 2016, 11:39:52 AM
The following was Jeremy's reply to me a couple of years ago when I had the similar issue and found it to be the starter:

 
The Hydra has nothing to do with the ignition switch or the starter, that line comes straight from the battery & the solenoid straight from the ignition. Also, the immobilizer is out of the picture with the stock ECU unplugged.  Sounds to me like a starter solenoid but there’s only one way to know for sure.
 
Might try a running car with jumper cables to your battery if it gives you trouble again in case your battery is low on amperage.
 


Just as an update my car is getting worse on distance.
So this weekend i am going to attempt to take out the starter.
Been doing some reading and everything tells me that this is gonna be a PITA!
Any tips on removing these upper bolts will be appreciated. :)


Title: Re: Hydra restart after a long drive?
Post by: rotorglow on February 12, 2016, 02:39:01 PM
Have you checked the things we've been suggesting that you check?


Title: Re: Hydra restart after a long drive?
Post by: thomsoad on February 12, 2016, 03:35:28 PM
Have you checked the things we've been suggesting that you check?

Since the problem is so sporadic; factor in the potential of a major problem down the road; and how many miles are on the current starter i figure its a good idea to just replace the starter. But i will be cleaning all connections while im doing this.  :) Just want to point out that I did check the battery connection and thats fine. Based on everything i have read all signs do point to the actual starter.


Title: Re: Hydra restart after a long drive?
Post by: thomsoad on February 13, 2016, 07:30:12 PM
Decided to take Rotors advice to check/clean all connections.
Took for a long drive and turned the car off for 20 minutes...same issue.
IMO its gotta be the starter. Just got thru looking at how to do this and man...what a PITA!
Car shop quoted a price of $110 for labor.
Ive been enjoying working on this car but I think this is one of those scenarios where I will just let the shop take car of it.


Title: Re: Hydra restart after a long drive?
Post by: SilverMiataRacer on February 13, 2016, 08:00:38 PM
You have mentioned more than a few times how hard the starter is going to be to do.

Your shop cost of $110.00 dollars means it's just a little over an hour at most labor for the R&R

I looked this up and it's remove the manifold brace, remove the wires and 2 bolts and a bolt with a nut.  Doesn't seem like it's a lot tot me.


Title: Re: Hydra restart after a long drive?
Post by: thomsoad on September 12, 2016, 07:01:28 PM
I know its been a while on this thread but I wanted to do a followup as to the problem:
Ended up being the starter.
What made this such a PITA was I replaced the starter with a starter that ended up being no better then the OEM I had replaced.