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Mazdaspeed Archive => Mazdaspeed Miata MX-5 Yack => Topic started by: Deathtrap13 on April 26, 2016, 05:16:36 PM



Title: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on April 26, 2016, 05:16:36 PM
Ordered in January 2016, Installed Last weekend

it was 860$
what was included:
-MS2E ecu
-Db-37 harness
(programmable output, obd interface and digital wideband com cable)
-instructions!

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/e367caa5c6e6471b177cca2147d6d203.jpg)

First things first. physically mounting the ECU in the car.
Rev's ECU had no mounting tabs or any hardware that allowed me to get it into the OEM ECU location.

A guy that had the same ECU on miataturbo.net made these mounts out of aluminum.

I went and made some from thin steel stock and drilled holes. it took a lot of test fitting. but it works fantasticly. the mounts have 2 small holes that use the ECU Case's screws to hold it up. beware, you will probably dislocate your shoulder a few times trying to get the ECU up under the dash.

this picture is not of my mounts specifically, but i cut them out exactly like these. I had managed to get the ECU mounted under the dash. and there is no way im taking it back out to get a picture.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/d0ff19deb81828a76200254806852fdc.jpg)

Installing the ECU.

the OEM ecu wire harness plugs right in to the new MS ECU.

you also should plug in Rev's db37 harness, your DB-9 tuning cable and the vacuum line before finally mounting it.

an GM IAT sensor is a must.
I took my BEGI throttle pipe to a fab shop and had them weld in a 3/8"-npt pipe bung

as seen on the top left of my begi pipe. the GM IAT sensor and connector can be found at most local auto parts stores, or on ebay.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/5ca95cd10bb7df3aa0158055273fe206.jpg)


for mazdaspeeds you need to clip the 2 wires going to the OEM temperature sensor (other side of the begi pipe) and splice them to the wires of the new GM IAT.

run a vacuum line from the back of the intake manifold to the nipple on the back of the new ECU.
mine is teed from the boost gauge sensor.

download Rev's supplied INI. file, save to desktop

Open Tunerstudio, make new project
(tuning cable is plugged into laptop now and ignition is on)

new project, choose rev's INI file (thats the firmware) and make the project. test the comm port (tuning cable) and you finish the setup (per instructions) and you can acsess your ECU on your laptop.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: DaveB on April 29, 2016, 09:28:01 PM
Thanks for the useful post!

I am going to install Rev's MS2E next month too.
Can you please share a drawing for the brackets?


Title: Re: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on April 30, 2016, 02:17:26 PM
Thanks for the useful post!

I am going to install Rev's MS2E next month too.
Can you please share a drawing for the brackets?
I dont have them. I took the stock ecu out and then you can trace them with a sharpie on the metal. the ecu is just fat enough to make up for the bent part of the top bracket (triangular one). just try your best to make them like the ones in the picture above. if your holes are 1/8" off you can just use a wider washer and it will hold. The ecu is very very light


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: '95MSM on May 01, 2016, 04:28:04 PM
I'm following this closely. I asked Reverant several clarifying questions which he ignored in his response to me. My operating mode is Analytic - I prefer to have solid data before making decisions, so at this point I'm thinking MS Labs (Reverant) may not be the best vendor for me.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: eviltwinz on May 01, 2016, 05:37:47 PM
I'm following this closely. I asked Reverant several clarifying questions which he ignored in his response to me. My operating mode is Analytic - I prefer to have solid data before making decisions, so at this point I'm thinking MS Labs (Reverant) may not be the best vendor for me.

I had the same experience as you did. That was enough to give pause to my project.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: DaveB on May 01, 2016, 07:12:12 PM
I'm following this closely. I asked Reverant several clarifying questions which he ignored in his response to me. My operating mode is Analytic - I prefer to have solid data before making decisions, so at this point I'm thinking MS Labs (Reverant) may not be the best vendor for me.
I had the same experience as you did. That was enough to give pause to my project.

Imagine I have second hand MSlabs MS2E


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Maduh on May 02, 2016, 04:28:02 AM
I'm waiting on some parts to come in but I'll be installing my rev unit for the second time soon on my 99. Not expecting any hiccups this time around. Last time it went pretty well except for some minor timing table errors.


Title: Re:
Post by: Deathtrap13 on May 02, 2016, 12:42:16 PM
I think a couple of you should note that these kind of upgrades are not for the faint if heart. Having an ECU like this is a very big thing because you are not locked out from anything. one simple setting somewhere in your software can cause your car to become a paper weight until you figure it out. And there are going to be about 200 new things that can go wrong. I used to have an MS1 ECU in an NA miata and that is now considered to be pretty much garbage now compared to the newer models. It was very simple to tune and seems like child's play to this one, and even that took me 2 years of fiddling to really get my head wrapped around the complexity of tuning.

If you think tuning will be easier on any other ECU you may need to think again.

And my car has not run in more than a week now. Im still waiting on Rev to message me back...But the car has not physically started yet. somthing is preventing it from cranking and I have yet to find out.

Just to make sure nothing was wrong with the car, I plugged my stock ecu back in and it started right up.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk



Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: '95MSM on May 03, 2016, 01:18:25 AM
Rather than move on from Reverant, I PM'd him about the unanswered questions. Got a detailed response same day. I think I'm going to go with an MS2 Enhanced.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: TheDonger on May 03, 2016, 02:45:33 AM
I've installed his MS3 on a NB2 and I just picked up a MS2e from Rev as well. He is very quick on his responses and always willing to help or guide you into the right direction. I've also noticed that asking him a list of questions in one post or message is not efficient. He seems to answer anything as long it's sent to him one at a time; which I can understand.

But I will be installing my MS2e on my MSM as well and ill document it somewhere in this forum. But right after I finish up the timing belt and various other mods.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: TheIglu on May 03, 2016, 12:51:06 PM
My MS3E showed up yesterday.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on May 03, 2016, 01:29:34 PM
Rather than move on from Reverant, I PM'd him about the unanswered questions. Got a detailed response same day.
He is very quick on his responses and always willing to help or guide you into the right direction. I've also noticed that asking him a list of questions in one post or message is not efficient. He seems to answer anything as long it's sent to him one at a time; which I can understand.

The only reason I have not become upset with him yet is because I have reason to believe he may be on vacation or dealing with something....His last reply/post on miataturbo.net was on the 21st....but then it said his last activity was today....hmm. could still check stuff on his phone, but maybe cant deal with it until he gets back....IDK

I'll give it one more week maximum before I actually take more serious action...Just in case I didn't say, its been 9 days now with a non-running car and 3 messages sent to him with logs and descriptions of the issues, and plus one message yesterday as a reminder that I sent the past messages.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: TheIglu on May 03, 2016, 01:41:17 PM
I've heard nothing but overwhelmingly positive reviews on the other sites for his helpfulness and responsiveness. That's why I ordered mine from him. The communication thus far from him has been certainly not up to the standard I've read about.


I asked twice before my unit was built to have dual MAP sensors (baro and MAP) as well as wanting to run my AEM UEGO via digital means vs analog (via additional CANBUS module if necessary for added cost). Then I also requested that on the build questionnaire.

He never even acknowledged either request. I said I'd pay extra for whatever is needed.


We'll see when I get it plugged in, but I'm not expecting the CANBUS to have been implemented. From what I've read, his CANBUS module is a different unit that can't be mounted inside the box. Reading on his site, it says that the unit has the onboard BARO, but it should would of been nice for him to just say it outright to ease my concerns after asking two times.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on May 03, 2016, 10:10:04 PM
Updates!:

This Post is being copied from my thread over at MiataTurbo.net....so read this in sequential order.


Finally, Finally, Finally, it runs.
Rev sent me an email and it was just a setting that was wrong.

Turned out in ignition settings > "ignition input capture" was set to "Falling Edge" Rather than "Rising Edge"
took a few turns but then it started.....finished setting base timing....then it was running lean, but very close in RPMS (about 600-900 oscillation)

went to Fuel/VE table and highlighted the entire table and added +5...wanted to keep the same interpolation that he had. idles very steadily now 850RPM +/- at 14.8 - 15.2 AFR.... thats good.

Now, still have one big issue... The wideband is not communicating with Tuner studio....I have an Innovate LC-2 that is wired "stand-alone" from the ECU (gauge and controller powered from fuse box)
The gauge in the cabin works fine...But I'm using revs digital wideband com cable wired into the DB-37 harness... that is plugged into the DB9 "OUT" port on my wideband controller...Tuner studio's Calibrate AFR table recognizes that it is LC-1/LC-2 by default, and in CAN1 (Enhanced mode) under Digital wideband / EGT port it is set to Innovate MTX....But I have nothing...the gauge in TS just reads 14.7 all of the time.
also in AFR/EGO settings I have "Single wideband" selected, and "Remote ADC '0'" selected

UPDATE 2: (Shortly after)


Rev believes the problem is that he forgot to solder a bridge between the pads on the circuit board that results in the DB-9 digital wideband COM port to be inactive.

I undid my wires for the LC-2....Then re-wired as:
LC-2 Black wire > DB-37 Blk/yellow wire
LC-2 Yellow wire > DB-37 Yellow wire
LC-2 Red wire > DB-37 White/Red wire
LC-2 Brown wire > Innovate Gauge white wire

Then connected to my wideband controller on LM-Programmer (Innovate's software) and re-programmed both outputs to be the same
So now both the yellow and brown wires on the wideband controller use AFR and have 0 - 5 volts (7.35-22.39 AFR)

I think tuner studio sees 1-4v for LC-2 controllers though...I think it's the same linear curve, but I will make sure before moving forward.
Anyway, its working now (after going into "Fuel settings" > "Ego control" > "1st ego port" > Change to "Local")

So now as a temporary fix, the wide-band is communicating to the ECU via the "old fashioned" analog wire method...not the digital output.
Reverant told me that he can instruct me on how to install/solder the bridge that is missing, but this will require me to take my ECU back out and take it apart.




Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on May 04, 2016, 01:14:26 AM
Just got back from my first on the road runs.

I got to run VEAL for probably over 30 min of run-time.

The VE table provided ran super rich...pretty much everywhere...it took a few runs for me to get it into a drive-able form because of how rich it got on any throttle at any rpm in any gear.

I read earlier today about a guy whom got an ECU from Rev (back a few years ago) and he said he had to UN-plug the VTCS Solenoid...he was getting a weird bog over 4k rpm and rich conditions...I think I may have been encountering these same symptoms, but I dont know If I am just suspicious over reading his blog.

If any of you current MS users chime in. Did you have to do anything related....It felt like I had trouble getting over 4-5k and it felt really boggy...but also my AFR's were like 9.0-10 so it could have been fuel cut.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: TheBigChill on May 04, 2016, 12:15:53 PM
I've read of 3 people that had to unplug the VTCS in order to get the car running correctly, all using Rev's MS2E.


Title: Re: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on May 04, 2016, 01:55:47 PM
I've read of 3 people that had to unplug the VTCS in order to get the car running correctly, all using Rev's MS2E.
would you mind telling me where the connector is? im going to try it.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk



Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: TheBigChill on May 04, 2016, 05:14:31 PM
On the backside of the intake manifold (firewall side), right next to the EGR valve.  Mounted to a brass bracket.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: SilverMiataRacer on May 04, 2016, 06:07:53 PM
Be careful of your fingers around the EGR valve.  The "gasket" is made out of an old razor blade and it will slice you finger if you get your finger in there.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on May 05, 2016, 01:10:20 AM
On the backside of the intake manifold (firewall side), right next to the EGR valve.  Mounted to a brass bracket.

Got it. thanks.

I unplugged the VTCS, and I swear I notice a difference. yesterday it seemed boggy and the engine sounded different climbing up in RPM...It seemed like it did not want to go past 4000 rpm.

today (after un-plugging VTCS) it seemed way more compliant during tuning. I got the VE table tuned close in a few columns, and I did get a really hard pull and for a second I was like "dang it pulled really hard there" it felt fast.

Did not have any time to get to do more tuning, but I will tomorrow...dang. cops will probably be everywhere tomorrow being Cinco De Mayo and all.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: TheBigChill on May 05, 2016, 12:41:11 PM
On the backside of the intake manifold (firewall side), right next to the EGR valve.  Mounted to a brass bracket.

Got it. thanks.

I unplugged the VTCS, and I swear I notice a difference. yesterday it seemed boggy and the engine sounded different climbing up in RPM...It seemed like it did not want to go past 4000 rpm.

today (after un-plugging VTCS) it seemed way more compliant during tuning. I got the VE table tuned close in a few columns, and I did get a really hard pull and for a second I was like "dang it pulled really hard there" it felt fast.

Did not have any time to get to do more tuning, but I will tomorrow...dang. cops will probably be everywhere tomorrow being Cinco De Mayo and all.

If I recall correctly, the 3 instances which I read about all had that ~4000 RPM issue.  The general idea is that you want the VTCS plates to open at anything above idle.  They are there only to aid your cold idle stability.

You should contact Rev about it; he should know exactly what to do.

Threads of interest for you: 

http://www.miataturbo.net/megasquirt-18/no-power-until-5200rpm-66491/
http://www.miataturbo.net/megasquirt-18/standard-vics-vtcs-behaviour-52479/
http://www.miataturbo.net/megasquirt-18/no-power-until-5200rpm-66491/






Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: VcrMiata on May 05, 2016, 01:10:13 PM
 I haven't had an issue with Rev, he usually responds within a day or 2 depending on if a weekend is involved.  However I only contacted him a few times when I initially installed my MS3 basic a year ago.

With respect to VTCS, I did not have to disconnect it.  It's controlled in the programmable on/off outputs area under advanced engine settings.  Look for Inj-H (I think that's it from memory, I can confirm tomorrow).  VTCS is only active during warm up with the following constraints: under 2300 RPM and engine temp under 60C. 
You can disable it on this page which is a better solution than unplugging.  VCTS is normally off and the control needs to enable it to turn it on.

If you switch off/disable VTCS you will need to retune ASE and WUE, I think it will run richer with it off.
My base tune did not have it on and thought I would try it for a while.  I got annoyed with the noise VTCS makes when engaged while warming up so I turned it off again after a few months.

If you have a hesitation around 4K, check your tune to ensure launch control is turned off (also under advanced engine menu).  I and a few others had it turned on in the base tune.  It will cause a hesitation when shifting around 4K where the default hard limit is set.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: VcrMiata on May 05, 2016, 02:23:06 PM
Look for Inj-H (I think that's it from memory, I can confirm tomorrow).

Confirmed: for Rev built MS3 the VTCS is on PA7 - Inj H ; I got this info from Rev.


Title: Re: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on May 05, 2016, 04:21:16 PM
 I haven't had an issue with Rev, he usually responds within a day or 2 depending on if a weekend is involved.  However I only contacted him a few times when I initially installed my MS3 basic a year ago.

With respect to VTCS, I did not have to disconnect it.  It's controlled in the programmable on/off outputs area under advanced engine settings.  Look for Inj-H (I think that's it from memory, I can confirm tomorrow).  VTCS is only active during warm up with the following constraints: under 2300 RPM and engine temp under 60C. 
You can disable it on this page which is a better solution than unplugging.  VCTS is normally off and the control needs to enable it to turn it on.

If you switch off/disable VTCS you will need to retune ASE and WUE, I think it will run richer with it off.
My base tune did not have it on and thought I would try it for a while.  I got annoyed with the noise VTCS makes when engaged while warming up so I turned it off again after a few months.

If you have a hesitation around 4K, check your tune to ensure launch control is turned off (also under advanced engine menu).  I and a few others had it turned on in the base tune.  It will cause a hesitation when shifting around 4K where the default hard limit is set.
Thanks for the input. I will say I might have just been suspicious of the symptoms because I read that thread right before i went out to tune.

Im about to go re-route my turbosmart boost controller to get its source at the throttle body pipe. i just read a thread on miata turbo showing that it's bad to have it source right at the turbo. Im using Flyin Miata's intake and it has a nipple right after the pipe that comes off the turbo, and thats where my boost controller was teed.

so turbo wastegate > MBC > throttle pipe will be the new route

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk



Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: kley on May 05, 2016, 05:51:08 PM
I've read of 3 people that had to unplug the VTCS in order to get the car running correctly, all using Rev's MS2E.
Make that 4 people. I had two different non starting episodes, one was VTCS and the other was my OE boost solenoid. It took several emails and delays but Rev eventually answered and told me to disconnect them.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: SpeedracerIndy on May 06, 2016, 06:51:04 PM
Wow, this thread is making me nervous.  I JUST sent Rev $950 about 5 minutes ago for an MS3 for my MSM.  And I was hoping to get it running well enough in about a month for a track day.  Might have to postpone that first track day after reading this...


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: VcrMiata on May 06, 2016, 11:26:15 PM
To be realistic...

If you have a knowlegeable tuner in the wings you should be good.  

If you are learning as you go then you are extemely optimistic, unless you have a month of vacation starting now.

Having said the above, I exaggerate a bit,you can make it safe fairly quickly. Getting to a fun daily driver takes time.

Edited.


Title: Re:
Post by: Deathtrap13 on May 07, 2016, 04:27:45 PM
Update:
plugged VTCS back in, went into CAN1 (enhanced settings) and turned VTCS/VICS off.
went out for a road tune. I swear it started doing it again.

yesterday. just unplugged it again. the boggyness went away.

Oh man im starting to get the fuel table dialed in. and it is pulling HARD.

on the current tune, AFRs are roughly in the richer side of 11's at 9-10psi.
this is on toyota 305cc injectors. they are working fine.

im either going to try adding 1 degree if timing to the whole upper half of the ignition table, or lean out the AFR and fuel table up top and see if I can get it to pull a little harder.

I felt like I got the hardest pulls when AFRs were 12-11.5 in the upper mapKpA cells (5-10) psi

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: '95MSM on May 08, 2016, 12:17:18 AM
What the VICS solenoid wanted seemed counter intuitive to me when I was messing with it. It was hot at lower RPMs (I think the recommended cut-over is 5300 or so), so the solenoid drew power during most normal driving. That seemed odd to me, but it is a tiny little solenoid valve. This is a roundabout way of saying what the software says is "on" might not be electrically what the system needs to be "on".  Pulling the plug eliminates all that, so unless you are going to have to swap in the OEM ecu for emissions testing, you're good to go!


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: TheBigChill on May 09, 2016, 07:34:20 PM
Quote
I felt like I got the hardest pulls when AFRs were 12-11.5 in the upper mapKpA cells (5-10) psi

And this is why I've always shot for ~11.8 on previous cars.  Feel free to give it a little more fuel at peak boost and high RPM.

Glad you're making progress.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: VcrMiata on May 09, 2016, 08:35:00 PM
Just checked where I learned about VTCS settings:
http://www.miataturbo.net/megasquirt-18/standard-vics-vtcs-behaviour-52479/ (http://www.miataturbo.net/megasquirt-18/standard-vics-vtcs-behaviour-52479/)

MSM has VTCS (we do not have VICS).

OEM VTCS is active when coolant is less than 60C and RPM is under 3,500.
OEM VICS has a transition point when RPM is 5,200  (active vs inactive is a bit confusing :))



Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: TheBigChill on May 10, 2016, 12:35:50 PM
That thread is already linked to, among others.   :mrgreen:


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on May 10, 2016, 12:56:22 PM
UPDATE:

Tuning fuel and spark has gone pretty well so far, I am hitting my AFR targets fine up to 9-10 psi. Have not had a chance to pass 7000 rpm and the car has not been over 90mph....now that the fuel map is stable I am going to start addressing things like:

- when the car comes off of a throttle blip sometimes RPMS rebound low (500rpm and then back up)
- I cranked the car up hot after a run and got a very rough (almost stalling out) condition that required me to keep on the throttle to keep it running
- the low cells on the fuel map give me poping/rumbling, I think those cells need more resolution because its switching from low 40's to mid 50's fast

I'm about to post screen-shots of my Idle/Cranking settings. I pretty much have not touched them other than the WUE (Warm-up enrichment) and scaled down my PWM table
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160510/499c16ed1b3d90d8cba681e5de139e5d.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160510/a72d838a144d636ba81485a1ae57f4f0.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160510/2960349c7efb885125a38195fa3437e9.jpg)


Title: Re: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Maduh on May 11, 2016, 06:45:54 AM
Wow, this thread is making me nervous.  I JUST sent Rev $950 about 5 minutes ago for an MS3 for my MSM.  And I was hoping to get it running well enough in about a month for a track day.  Might have to postpone that first track day after reading this...
I doubt you'll get yours within a month. Both times I've bought a unit from Rev it took atleast 6-7 weeks to come in.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on May 11, 2016, 09:40:33 PM
Starting when CLT temps are above 175* really sucks. It cranks for like 3 seconds and feels like its not going to start, then it catches and almost stalls...then It starts to run very weak and AFR's are like 7-8 super rich for like 12 seconds and then It idles low.

after that it goes back to running and idling fine (750-800rpm @ 14.4-15 AFR)

Still getting a shifty rebound when I blip the throttle, I need more resolution in the lower cells. so I think I should Re-scale the VE table and take out 240kpa and add more lower kpa cells for cruising.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: DaveB on May 12, 2016, 08:38:17 PM
Starting when CLT temps are above 175* really sucks. It cranks for like 3 seconds and feels like its not going to start, then it catches and almost stalls...then It starts to run very weak and AFR's are like 7-8 super rich for like 12 seconds and then It idles low.

IAT heat sock?
move it to the IC cold side?


Title: Re: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on May 12, 2016, 09:09:31 PM
Starting when CLT temps are above 175* really sucks. It cranks for like 3 seconds and feels like its not going to start, then it catches and almost stalls...then It starts to run very weak and AFR's are like 7-8 super rich for like 12 seconds and then It idles low.

IAT heat sock?
move it to the IC cold side?
it already is.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on May 12, 2016, 10:22:26 PM
Im not sure If I stated this.

This car has a Flyin' Miata Cold Air Intake, FM Intercooler and Begi Throttle Pipe. The new GM IAT Bung is in that begi throttle pipe. Also I have a Turbosmart Manual Boost Controller.

Turned down my ASE values again and I will go try again in a second and see if it made a difference.... temps are getting hot here in North Carolina so Its not so important to have it exactly perfect right now. I was in the gym for like 2 hours and when I came back out my CLT temps were still at 150*


Title: Re: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: DaveB on May 12, 2016, 11:27:13 PM
Starting when CLT temps are above 175* really sucks. It cranks for like 3 seconds and feels like its not going to start, then it catches and almost stalls...then It starts to run very weak and AFR's are like 7-8 super rich for like 12 seconds and then It idles low.
IAT heat sock?
move it to the IC cold side?

it already is.

The new GM IAT Bung is in that begi throttle pipe.

I am sorry but: IAT is in the throttle pipe or in the intercooler?


Title: Re: Re: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on May 14, 2016, 05:00:41 PM
Starting when CLT temps are above 175* really sucks. It cranks for like 3 seconds and feels like its not going to start, then it catches and almost stalls...then It starts to run very weak and AFR's are like 7-8 super rich for like 12 seconds and then It idles low.
IAT heat sock?
move it to the IC cold side?

it already is.

The new GM IAT Bung is in that begi throttle pipe.

I am sorry but: IAT is in the throttle pipe or in the intercooler?
the throttle tube that comes after the intercooler. the place where every person has ever put it.



Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk



Title: Re: Re: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: DaveB on May 14, 2016, 07:50:29 PM
Starting when CLT temps are above 175* really sucks. It cranks for like 3 seconds and feels like its not going to start, then it catches and almost stalls...then It starts to run very weak and AFR's are like 7-8 super rich for like 12 seconds and then It idles low.
IAT heat sock?
move it to the IC cold side?

it already is.

The new GM IAT Bung is in that begi throttle pipe.

I am sorry but: IAT is in the throttle pipe or in the intercooler?

the throttle tube that comes after the intercooler. the place where every person has ever put it.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy"

It is already discussed many times on mt.net and other forums.




Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Fl.Miata.Fun on May 25, 2016, 05:18:06 PM
Thanks for posting your experience with MS2.  This is great information for me to decide if I want to go this route.  As you said, it's not for the faint of heart.  I just replaced my timing belt, cam/crank seals, water pump, etc., but I have never done tuning before....

I just bought a totally stock 2004 MSM 2 months ago, and I'm trying to decide what mods I want to do. Initially I thought of just going FM LE and then the reflash.  However, I feel like I will be limited on future upgrades with the reflash, especially if I want to upgrade the turbo.....the FM Garrett upgrade is reallllly appealing to me! 

Any recommendations on starting with the MS as my first step? 


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: SilverMiataRacer on May 25, 2016, 05:41:46 PM
I suggest you do a bit more reading before you make choices.  There are a few options out there and a few options that are not the best choice.  You mentioned one of them but not for the correct reason.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: '95MSM on May 25, 2016, 06:51:38 PM
If you think you will wind up with something other than the stock (or a stock-ish) IHI, I would not do the normal MSM upgrade path. Treat it like a normal NB - almost none of the MSM upgrade parts will be really right for whatever turbo you install.

Your first step will then be a really big one, but otherwise you will be retracing steps and selling off parts that you can no longer use.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on May 25, 2016, 07:32:32 PM
Thanks for posting your experience with MS2.  This is great information for me to decide if I want to go this route.  As you said, it's not for the faint of heart.  I just replaced my timing belt, cam/crank seals, water pump, etc., but I have never done tuning before....

I just bought a totally stock 2004 MSM 2 months ago, and I'm trying to decide what mods I want to do. Initially I thought of just going FM LE and then the reflash.  However, I feel like I will be limited on future upgrades with the reflash, especially if I want to upgrade the turbo.....the FM Garrett upgrade is reallllly appealing to me! 

Any recommendations on starting with the MS as my first step? 

    I think your thinking about it too much. You NEED an ECU. Get an MS or get a hydra. you will figure it all out eventually, and at worst have to find a tuner to help you, but If you keep an open mind its really not all that bad.
    I really just wanted to get across than even though these things are "Plug-n-Play" your still going to have to dedicate yourself to learning, and reading about stuff. and it's even less stressful if you have a back-up car if things go wrong.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Fl.Miata.Fun on May 25, 2016, 07:55:39 PM
Interesting info.  Taking notes for possible future MS install....


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: TheIglu on May 25, 2016, 08:11:13 PM
I'll let you know how plug and play an MS3 from Rev really is next week.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on June 01, 2016, 02:55:00 PM
I purchased a TurboSmart BOV for it last week and installed it yesterday. pretty happy with it so far except I want to source the vac/boost line for the BOV somewhere OTHER than where the bypass valve previously was. This is because both the MS2's MAP signal line and the Boost gauge were teed into this line as well.

I'm keeping the boost gauge and MAP signal vac lines teed off from the same nipple on the back of the manifold and I'm going to Tee off the Fuel Pressure Regulator line (90 degree nipple right after butterfly) and let that be the vac/boost line that goes to the BOV. I will show pictures this afternoon.

Tell me what you guys think.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: DaveB on June 01, 2016, 03:12:50 PM


http://www.bellengineering.net/product_info.php?cPath=6_214&products_id=99

(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/album665/P8131842.jpg)



Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on June 01, 2016, 03:40:19 PM

http://www.bellengineering.net/product_info.php?cPath=6_214&products_id=99

Doesn't seem necessary, but thanks for the link.

I just need to know if it's ok that I teed this vacuum line here:


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on June 01, 2016, 03:43:21 PM

http://www.bellengineering.net/product_info.php?cPath=6_214&products_id=99

Doesn't seem necessary, but thanks for the link.

I just need to know if it's ok that I teed this vacuum line here:
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160601/9805b82de28419ac00d679f55872aa55.jpg)


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: SilverMiataRacer on June 01, 2016, 05:32:00 PM
Personally I don't like to signal anything from a line with a check valve in it no matter which side of the valve you use.  JMHO



Title: Re:
Post by: Deathtrap13 on June 01, 2016, 08:20:55 PM
note for future MS users:

pretty much the only thing that you will need to change in your tune will be your fuel maps. particularly in the lower cells and it would be a good idea to make some runs in VEAL to tune fuel in the main acceleration area. because now instead of air being dumped back into the intake, it will be vented away, and there will/should be a slightly more rich condition right at "let-off" which you will have to tune for.

otherwise, RPM and vacuum wise everything ran about the same after the install

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk



Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on June 14, 2016, 02:36:22 PM
does anyone know If I can run a 1.0 mS dead-time on my grams 750cc injectors and/or know what deadtime I should put in MS for the provided flow vs. deadtime sheet?

(http://www.miataturbo.net/attachments/ecus-tuning-54/171436-skunk2-grams-750cc-injectors-what-do-you-think-80-g_941_caaa7e354a69c99a28afcefd394beafce9fdfff7_9174edad734f8a04d619ce6c3d4c3815a9d999ee.jpg?dateline=1463243528)

(http://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.miataturbo.net-vbulletin/1397x864/80-20160507_174124_21544498c83ed4be8978f5217b1318a4a81e34cc.jpg)


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on June 22, 2016, 01:32:19 AM
bump:\

Need to know if running a 1.0mS deadtime will actually work until I find the correct deadtime or if the correct deadtime can be interpolated from the provided chart. I don't understand the fuel pressure vs. voltage.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: DaveB on June 22, 2016, 03:47:47 PM
From the provided chart:

1.042ms and 0.19ms/V

But, IMHO, the chart shows slightly optimistic and sometime strange deadtimes.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on June 22, 2016, 08:21:15 PM
From the provided chart:

1.042ms and 0.19ms/V

But, IMHO, the chart shows slightly optimistic and sometime strange deadtimes.

Thanks DaveB
So, how did you figure this out? I am curious for both my knowledge and others to do this in the future.
I thought that it would be lower than 1.0 because im running 1.0 deadtime right now in Tuner Studio's fuel settings and thats with the 312cc Toyota injectors.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: DaveB on June 23, 2016, 06:17:40 PM
Injector offset/voltage characterization is non linear curve,
MS2 "understands" the straight line only.
That is why it is best compromise finding.

choose data according to differential pressure and interpolate between 2 points.
I prefer 12V and 14V points


(http://www.mazda-speed.com/albums/album665/MS2offset.jpg)


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: DaveB on June 23, 2016, 06:28:16 PM
Im running 1.0 deadtime right now in Tuner Studio's fuel settings and thats with the 312cc Toyota injectors.

U r running incorrect settings



Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on June 27, 2016, 03:56:23 PM
So according to all of that, I should be able to make the following adjustments in tunerstudio and run these injectors. Im providing a image describing what i need to change:
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160627/03bd7558fe301b07771ce9031269f2d7.jpg)


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: DaveB on June 27, 2016, 04:44:32 PM
Correct,

FIY,
in perfect world, you have to use Injector flow rate at your effective fuel pressure,
but 750cc/min@43.5psi  will work too

I calculated Deadtime and Batt_corr for your effective fuel pressure at idle based on the deadtimes table you provided above. From my experience, it looks too optimistic, I would say It should be around 1.4ms





Title: Re: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on June 28, 2016, 03:15:23 PM


From my experience, it looks too optimistic, I would say It should be around 1.4ms

1.4? or did you mean 1.04?

see I thought the whole thing about upgrading to EV14 injectors was having a "smaller/shorter" or more precise deadtime. please forgive my ignorance on the topic. but it just flys right over my head everytime.

on the threads about deadtime on miataturbo.net people with 650FICs or ID's were getting values below 1.0....in the .8-.95 range IIRC.

BTW dave thanks for all your wisdom on the matter, I need to go find some videos of engineers explaining this or somthing because im having a hard time wrapping my head around it.



Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk



Title: Re: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: DaveB on June 28, 2016, 03:48:59 PM


From my experience, it looks too optimistic, I would say It should be around 1.4ms

1.4? or did you mean 1.04?

see I thought the whole thing about upgrading to EV14 injectors was having a "smaller/shorter" or more precise deadtime. please forgive my ignorance on the topic. but it just flys right over my head everytime.

on the threads about deadtime on miataturbo.net people with 650FICs or ID's were getting values below 1.0....in the .8-.95 range IIRC.


1. you are entering deadtime @13.2V for MS2, but you car running 14.4V(Megasquirt recalculates deadtime for your current voltage, for 14.4V it is shorter than for 13.2V)

2. deatime raises with fuel pressure rising. Most guys on mt.net running NA with return fuel rail on 43.5psi constantly because of the MAP reffered FPR. Deadtime on this pressure around 0.9ms @14.4V for modern injectors.
MSM/NB has returnless rail and NON MAP referred 61psi fuel pressure regulator - differential pressure on injectors is 70-71psi at idle.

Injector dynamics 725cc@14V@70psi has 0.97ms, your Gram table shows 0.89ms. That's why I said Gram is too optimistic


Long story short:
Try 1.04ms and let us know





Title: Re:
Post by: Deathtrap13 on June 28, 2016, 04:38:55 PM
ok. but none the less it will work??
just may not idle as consistently or tune as well.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk



Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: DaveB on June 28, 2016, 04:49:12 PM
Incorrect deadtime impacts more idle and less high load conditions.
You just never reach correct AFR/rpm at idle.
Most people live with it.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on June 28, 2016, 09:21:57 PM
well then, Ill save my tune, put it on a flash drive, and then install the injectors and try those settings. i will let you guys know how it works out. FWIW I have a pretty darn smooth idle right now with these injectors and I'm just running 1.0mS dead-time and .20vcorr

warmup, ASE and cold starting are a whole different story...but when its at operating temps it is darn smooth....i guess worse come to worse i'll just try it and see what happens.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: '95MSM on June 29, 2016, 02:14:24 AM
DaveB - thanks for your posts on this. I've picked up enough info on deadtime to sort of understand it, but your posts help clarify.

I don't suppose this is something that can be diagnosed by idle behavior? i.e. if it does this, then reduce deadtime, if it does that, increase. I'm guessing no - that incorrect deadtime just messes up idle, and not in a diagnose-able way.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: DaveB on June 29, 2016, 01:49:04 PM
I don't suppose this is something that can be diagnosed by idle behavior? i.e. if it does this, then reduce deadtime, if it does that, increase. I'm guessing no - that incorrect deadtime just messes up idle, and not in a diagnose-able way.

You are absolutely right!
deadtime finding/diagnosing is complex problem without simple/intuitive ways to solve.





Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on July 25, 2016, 10:11:24 PM
Still havent swapped those injectors.

last weekend the car died in the middle of the road and managed to pull it home (thankfully we were only like 3 miles away).

was a crazy situation, in the middle of turning out of an intersection my gauges started flickering, all the indicators flashing and just died and started making all kinds of clicky noises. would not start back up when I re-cranked, even re-set the battery and nothing.

when we got home we jumped it off and it ran but then immediately died after being off the cables.

I put a new battery in it and it cranked and idles fine, but since then It has been setting just because I've been busy. I'm kind of scared to try and take it down the road because im worried that it could have been computer or mechanically related.

Do you guys have any insight of settings in tuner studio that could have caused it to die, even while running? I never saw a car die because of a low battery while running, but the guy tested the battery and he said it was only putting out 135 CA. Also I remember when we just took off for our ~30 min ride, the idle was abnormally low like 500-600rpm and then it just kind of fixed itself, but I had no battery light indicated. kind of wish I would have been logging but I didnt because I ran VEAL for the first half of the trip.

The alternator just got replaced not to long ago.


Title: Re:
Post by: Deathtrap13 on August 01, 2016, 04:02:15 PM
Went out for a good 15min drive yesterday with a friend while logging. Volts stayed at 14-14.3 the whole  time. Idle was normal and seems to be fine? Just such a werid situation

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk



Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: DaveB on August 14, 2016, 11:48:34 PM
Still alive?
How is it going?


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on October 28, 2016, 07:21:54 PM
Still alive?
How is it going?

So I acquired a honda accord to get around because i'm about scared to drive the thing anywhere. I drive it to the gym once a week (about 5mi) away.

I never would of thought how hard it is to get help with this thing because now on Miataturbo everyone is using MS3 and there are just not that many actively posting Reverant MS2 users out there for me to find any specific info.

It just died on me on the way home about 3 months ago, and turned out to be the battery, because that issue is have yet to come back. But then since then there has just been odd little things that happen that make me worry that I will get stranded again.

1. Randomly coming to stoplights and slowing down my oil pressure gauge will dip all the way down and come back. it is just the stock oil pressure gauge. it should just read high all the time.

2. some times when I hit a really hard pull all of the indicators on the dashboard will light up for a second.....then the battery light comes on....and it will stay on no matter what......the only way it will go away is if I cut the car off and crank back up.

I just need to get the thing professionally set up and tuned because I can not find the answers that I need anywhere....and as for reverant....he will either give a vague answer or only answer one part of any question I ask, and then it takes a week for another response. I respect him, but I'm just saying its like pulling teeth.

I've started tuning it again, and yesterday I started getting a CEL right off throttle from a mild pull. it quickly flashes like 3 times then goes away. the knock indicator does not turn red. and I cant find a guide to the CEL reason numbers anywhere except for an old thread from 2012.


Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: DaveB on October 28, 2016, 07:39:55 PM
Still alive?
How is it going?
....and as for reverant....he will either give a vague answer or only answer one part of any question I ask, and then it takes a week for another response. I respect him, but I'm just saying its like pulling teeth.

He acts exactly! as you described.
But I bought my MS2E from second hands and did not expect too much help from him.

Did you buy MS2E directly from him?


P.S.: I believe all your troubles are not related to MS.



Title: Re: MS Labs MS2E (Rev Enhanced MS2) Install, Set-up and Tuning - 2005 MSM
Post by: Deathtrap13 on October 29, 2016, 05:07:04 PM
Still alive?
How is it going?
....and as for reverant....he will either give a vague answer or only answer one part of any question I ask, and then it takes a week for another response. I respect him, but I'm just saying its like pulling teeth.

He acts exactly! as you described.
But I bought my MS2E from second hands and did not expect too much help from him.

Did you buy MS2E directly from him?

P.S.: I believe all your troubles are not related to MS.


Yes, it was around April of this year.

Kind of funny, the random battery lights haven't happened in a while. and I kid you not, yesterday pulling into my driveway it came on. luckily I had my laptop so I hooked it up and data logged it.  Im going to send it to reverant