Mazda-speed.com

Mazdaspeed Archive => Mazdaspeed Miata MX-5 Yack => Topic started by: TurboToy on July 12, 2016, 04:03:48 AM



Title: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: TurboToy on July 12, 2016, 04:03:48 AM
Good day, ladies and gents. Please put on the tea, and saddle up. This goes on a bit, but there's a big prize at the end!
Well brethren n' sisters,  my cherished 2004 MSM build #2641/4000 is blessedly cursed.  Moving at a good clip, I moronically didn't see a dark curb by a highway exit ramp. BOOM OM... oy vei. The two tires, driver side, barely held air. The rims - dented in like friggen Pac-Man. Epic forces at play. I am deeply thankful I didn't crash, and I didn't nick the body at all. The front end was just repainted. She looks sublime...but she gotta go fellas; It gets much worse.
Where to begin... The roof latches no longer line up. Still tight, but off by a couple millimeters. The driver side fender sits an inch lower. Perplexingly, the passenger side fender, now sits... hmm 3/4 inches higher? All of this suspension tomfoolery is just  too unsettling. It drives 'ok', and now has 2 perfect Motegis 5 spokers on passenger side, and two natty ol' original R Harts on the driver side. Plus a rub and a clack once in a while (sure enough, as I took off the banged wheel, a bolt sheared on the front driver side. So I'm rolling on 3 out of 4 bolts there).

Looking at the whole picture, I see two new wheels, 4 new tires, Lord knows what suspension work truly needs done... and timing belt is due, and I have no real mechanic hook ups. I am realistically looking at $3,000+ to get her all sorted. $5k if a Mazda dealer writes up an all new Bilstein set up, on a 12 year old MSM. (If parts exist). Big buccos, right...? So, options a'swirling...

A) Trade in the MSM at a Mazda dealer. I used to sell new cars, Nissans, and would try every customer trick in the book to drive a solid deal. I'd drive that heap there, and see what they offer for a 'rare gem' 04 MSM, 62k track-free miles. All original, mint motor/body-everything 'cept the aforementioned is top form. I'd slip in the recent front $1,500 repaint perhaps. Realistically, they're gonna dump it at auction. I suppose they will take note of suspension issues, though I surely won't walk in wearing a T-Shirt saying 'Ask me about my suspension issues'. Considering (hopefully) just a lack of 4 good wheels and tires, what do think a new Mazda dealer would offer? I bought it at window price, $15k in 2009 w/ 25k clicks. In a fairy tale world I'd hope for $10k, as KBB might say? What do you think? Obviously, in reality, I won't get $10k. Maybe... $8k? I'd rather hear $5k here first, instead of at the 'desk'. Please share opinions, and offers!

I would then need the dealer to source a suitable replacement, which obviously has to be a Miata. I would settle for no less than an NC hardtop Club miata, dark gray with all black top. Absolutely stick, and I think Clubs have the ideal setup, as far as LSD and tight Bilstien suspension. I will sorely miss the turbo/rarity of the MSM though. B) Or I could really go all in, down to one car. I'd trade in both the battered yet beautiful MSM, plus my '09 Legacy Limited. 50k on her, loaded to the gills. She was dad's, and is the perfect compliment to my silly go-kart car. But as John Conner once said... 'I can get out and run faster than this!' I'd hope to get closer to $10k for that, but who knows... I think I want a newer Miata more, plus keep dad's car. But put the two in a blender, what comes out? Yes indeedy, a newer STi to replace both? Compelling thought right? Is there really any car our there that combines raw fun and practicality like an STi? I think not, in my price/year/mileage range. $30k I guess, assuming decent enough trade in $ for the 2 cars. And lastly, C) what's the gadget play? The wild, yet still sensible plan. Keep the Subie, Go to a Lotus dealer, try to find a $25k Elise? Trade in MSM and get a big ass cashiers check to cover the difference? Take a big savings chunk for that one.

In closing, as our cars approach their troublesome teenage years, I bet many of us might be facing such a conundrum. I would greatly appreciate all of yinz's input, and thanks for tuning in to... Moving On; The MSM.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: thomsoad on July 12, 2016, 01:48:41 PM
You kind of go a few different directions on your post.
You mention what needs to be done on the MSM...love the MSM...but looking at a club NC, or Lotus Elise.
You also mention trading both the MSM and the Subie.
My personal thoughts are this:
If you think you would like/love the MSM if it was back to tip top shape why not SELL the Subaru and put the money into building your dream MSM?


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: TurboToy on July 12, 2016, 08:28:00 PM
I surely can't sell the Subie, as it is a necessity on Pittsburgh's brutal paths and weather cycles.
It all depends what might needs done. Might be a big day at the Mazda dealer. Maybe they can put together an estimate on suspension work?
There's not many cool places around here that would tinker with a Miata. I have used Mr. Tire before, but ah... hmm...
There's a few ways to go, so I just wanted to fire up opinions and input before getting on with paper work n' plates.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: '95MSM on July 13, 2016, 12:34:26 AM
You live in or near Pittsburgh and there isn't a Miata specialist? If true, that would surprise me. Find the local club (miata.net is a good place to start) and see what resources there are.

Planet Miata is about 5 hours away. Their website says they have a service dept, plus they do Spec Miata prep and maintenance. The guys I know that run SM are always repairing something - it is a highly competitive class with a fair amount of contact.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: ElyasWolff on July 13, 2016, 12:47:40 AM
I would try harder to see if the body and front subframe are straight if you truly love the car. Then do some research on how to fix your issues.

The latches can be adjusted, and the factory tech info allows a tech to widen holes on hardtop mounts to make them fit correctly.
Timing belt is a perfect wrenching learning experience with lots on videos and walkthroughes.
Snapped stud can be quickly fixed with a new hub.
The sagging drivers fender is most likely just a blown shock or shot spring. My 150k MSM has the same issue with no accidents, parts are just worn out.

If you were on the west coast I would offer you $3k for the car, or you could pay me in beer to teach you how to fix this stuff. I am sure there is someone at a local club that will do the same.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: Xio on July 13, 2016, 01:33:16 AM
I vote STi, but I am biased.  :laugh:


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: Ex36 on July 13, 2016, 04:48:50 AM
Parts aren't a problem for our cars, but as I replace the exhaust manifold studs and just bought all the "while you're at it" parts that would be prudent to replace (in a 116K mile car of unknown maintenance history with half the engine apart) I just spent $500.  Ouch.  That's on top of a previous order of $200 for the TB/WP kit and the $400 FM DP.  And I'm doing the wrenching for free.

I'll be there's a lot that got messed up from your curb hit that you don't see.  Even without that damage, I cannot see any way a dealer would get to $10K for the car.  For any MSM.  The only realistic number you threw out was the $25K Elise.  However, good luck finding one that hasn't been wrecked!  I was recently tempted by one myself, and in my half-hearted searching literally about 100% had been damaged.

I think STi's carry a pretty hefty premium that's not commensurate with what you get.  I'd look for other alternatives.  But obviously I have strong opinions and you might not agree!


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: thomsoad on July 13, 2016, 01:41:05 PM
The only realistic number you threw out was the $25K Elise. 

I also forgot to point out that if you are giving up on the MSM due to cost of maintenance ... good luck with the Elise.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: SilverMiataRacer on July 13, 2016, 02:49:24 PM
Or most any other sportscar


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: TurboToy on July 13, 2016, 07:05:10 PM
Thanks for all the input so far.
Guys I work with have been putting in their suggestions;
350Z - not my style, sounds like a UPS truck on meth (inside at least; they do sound nice outside though). Kinda heavy feel to them.
S2000- i don't vape, so i can't drive one. Also, a little too showy. I like the more approachable, less 'Fast n' Furious' flavor of Miatas

Greatly appreciate your input gents:
Thomsoad - very good point. Lotus maintenance and finding a place to take it are certainly soiling that option.
SilvermiataRacer - good point as well. Miatas are surely tops in  low maintenance needs, thus I'm really not considering much else.
Ex36 - Yes I surely was a fool, thinking $10k. I must have looked that up on KBB a couple years ago. Currently, trade in values on KBB are $6,800-9,000. Selling privately is $9,100. Surely a good chunk would be nicked off due to damage. I hope the perfect body/motor can keep the value up.
Xio - I admire your STi devotion. If I *had* to go to one car, I'd probably lean towards one. But I'm still rather set on staying a 2 car guy.
Elyas Wolf- I have fortunately found a guy through work who is going to take a good look. He works at a shop specializing in antique/classic/sports cars. His shop guy is a 30 year veteran, and they'll get it up and see what we're looking at.
Thanks for the offer for help, by the way. CA is a bit of a hike though.

I got in touch with fellow member TheJeans - he's got my dream Miata, and lives close by. I forget the specifics of what he has done, but it sounds tasty. I'm gonna meet him Friday. I'll get a nice look at his, hopefully a ride. I've never seen a tuned MSM in the flesh.  This will really help me decide what to do, pending the diagnosis on Monday.

If the frame's torqued and/or repairs are too much, I really liked what I read about the NC Club PRHT
http://jalopnik.com/2014-mazda-mx-5-miata-club-edition-the-jalopnik-review-1446605840


 


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: thejeans on July 13, 2016, 08:46:03 PM
Thanks for all the input so far.
Guys I work with have been putting in their suggestions;
350Z - not my style, sounds like a UPS truck on meth (inside at least; they do sound nice outside though). Kinda heavy feel to them.
S2000- i don't vape, so i can't drive one. Also, a little too showy. I like the more approachable, less 'Fast n' Furious' flavor of Miatas

Greatly appreciate your input gents:
Thomsoad - very good point. Lotus maintenance and finding a place to take it are certainly soiling that option.
SilvermiataRacer - good point as well. Miatas are surely tops in  low maintenance needs, thus I'm really not considering much else.
Ex36 - Yes I surely was a fool, thinking $10k. I must have looked that up on KBB a couple years ago. Currently, trade in values on KBB are $6,800-9,000. Selling privately is $9,100. Surely a good chunk would be nicked off due to damage. I hope the perfect body/motor can keep the value up.
Xio - I admire your STi devotion. If I *had* to go to one car, I'd probably lean towards one. But I'm still rather set on staying a 2 car guy.
Elyas Wolf- I have fortunately found a guy through work who is going to take a good look. He works at a shop specializing in antique/classic/sports cars. His shop guy is a 30 year veteran, and they'll get it up and see what we're looking at.
Thanks for the offer for help, by the way. CA is a bit of a hike though.

I got in touch with fellow member TheJeans - he's got my dream Miata, and lives close by. I forget the specifics of what he has done, but it sounds tasty. I'm gonna meet him Friday. I'll get a nice look at his, hopefully a ride. I've never seen a tuned MSM in the flesh.  This will really help me decide what to do, pending the diagnosis on Monday.

If the frame's torqued and/or repairs are too much, I really liked what I read about the NC Club PRHT
http://jalopnik.com/2014-mazda-mx-5-miata-club-edition-the-jalopnik-review-1446605840



dont worry guys, a ride in my MSM friday will save him from these crazy thoughts LOL


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: TurboToy on July 14, 2016, 02:09:04 AM
I wholly foresee it'll be a religious, pivotal experience for me, a ride in Levi's MSM.
I expect that even in gentle, non-abusive driving, your bad boy is gonna make some wicked sweet sounds, shove me around a bit, and bring me back to a lifetime member @ Camp MSM on Friday.
Monday mechanic visit will reveal much about what direction to go...
A)My Miata needs $2k to sort out, not too shabby. I surely will not let her slip away if she can be properly squared up. I'll have another few $k to bring it up to Lil Enchilada levels. Or...
B)Mechanic says the frame's twerked, and/or my suspension's really busted up. Parts aren't available, or it's like $5k to fix... gotta let her go in this case.

That'll be hurdle #1. If my MSM is too far gone, I hope to find some way to sell the car. My buddy might want it, and has dibs pretty much. Or dealer trade in.
Then it's look for a '14 Club PRHT (Jalopnik review/pics of both white and gray ones sold me on it), or maybe take Levi's off his 'too busy to drive the car' hands...


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: darkcambria on July 14, 2016, 01:01:07 PM
If you've been driving a bone stock msm, Levi's will be a new car to you. I've driven it around, got a fun amount of power and its well sorted. I think you'll enjoy yourself.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: TheBigChill on July 14, 2016, 01:30:36 PM
A 2005-ish Boxster S with the IMS sorted. 

When I think "Do you even Vape, Bro?", I specifically think WRX / STI, not S2000.

What's your budget?


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: TurboToy on July 14, 2016, 05:34:25 PM
Boxster is a sweet car... but sort of like the S2000, it's a little too much. I'd have to get a hi-mileage one to afford it, and the maintenance on a Porsche is not something I'd want to assume.

My budget depends a lot on what I can get for mine. The work pal who is getting involved asked me today, 'do I want to sell it or fix it?'
I replied - let's see what damage looks like. If the frame is alright, and I can fix the suspension for... $2k or so, I'll probably hold on to her. Fix her up, and the tune her up. In this case, I'd be happy to spend 2-5k, and have her all perked up. And I'd try to get the timing belt too.

But... if it's like a $4k fix, and/or parts just don't exist, or the frame's twisted, I'm gonna try to get what I can for it. Either trade in @ dealer, or sell to my work pal. Total guess on this number, but if I were to get $5k for mine, my budget would go one of two ways -
1) Take the $5k, put in $15k, and try to track down a nice '13 or '14 Club PRHT for around $20k
2) This is a more risky route, but with more risk comes more reward right? I'd try to find an MSM for sale that's in mint shape, preferably with a tasty bit of mods done already.



Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: sfcarbone on July 14, 2016, 08:42:39 PM
Have you considered talking to your insurance agent?  Hitting a curb is probably a covered event and it sounds like you are well past your deductible.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: '95MSM on July 14, 2016, 10:32:22 PM
The only way most people would take on a project that could have additional hidden damage is at a price so low that they will come out okay regardless of the outcome. I don't think it is realistic to take what you think the car would be worth after it is repaired, subtract the cost of the repairs and think you can get that for the car as-is. If the repairs are estimated at 4k, I think you might get 3k. Be prepared for any dealer trade-in offer to be offensively low.

Many years ago our first Lexus RX needed a transmission. We sold it through a trans repair shop, so the buyer was completely in the know as far as what the car needed. Seems like we got 5k for it, maybe just a bit more. The dealer offered us 2500 trade-in on our new RX. All of this was happening when Lexus was sending out postcards to owners saying their dealers needed good, clean used Lexus cars & SUVs and were offering top dollar. Our car was mint other than the trans, but they offered us peanuts for it.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: ElyasWolff on July 16, 2016, 12:17:55 AM
The only way most people would take on a project that could have additional hidden damage is at a price so low that they will come out okay regardless of the outcome. I don't think it is realistic to take what you think the car would be worth after it is repaired, subtract the cost of the repairs and think you can get that for the car as-is. If the repairs are estimated at 4k, I think you might get 3k. Be prepared for any dealer trade-in offer to be offensively low.

Many years ago our first Lexus RX needed a transmission. We sold it through a trans repair shop, so the buyer was completely in the know as far as what the car needed. Seems like we got 5k for it, maybe just a bit more. The dealer offered us 2500 trade-in on our new RX. All of this was happening when Lexus was sending out postcards to owners saying their dealers needed good, clean used Lexus cars & SUVs and were offering top dollar. Our car was mint other than the trans, but they offered us peanuts for it.

Thats funny my off the hip offer was 3K too. And that was factoring me doing the work... but you all know I love broke Miatas and go overboard fixing them.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: TurboToy on July 17, 2016, 02:38:50 AM
Sir Wolf, thanks for your 'off the hip' figure, but after my ride with TheJeans Friday, I surely won't shoot from the hip with my next move. Fingers crossed, I hope I just need coilovers and wheels.
I got a nice ride, smoke included, in TheJeans's MSM. I was gleefully overwhelmed by how absurd yet proper it felt.
A set of FM coilovers ought to sort the whole ride situation out nicely. Mr Jeans's slammed, track ready demon took highway bumps worlds better than mine. Melted the curves like butter. It's time I gave up 'the look'  of 17's. Jeans feels right - 16s are meant for the Miata. The ride revolution was a shock.
A surprise was the sound. Top down, ripping around, the noise was superb. An intake/exhaust upgrade is going to sound so sweet, but not Civic Ricer 'Fabulus'.
Hope my Monday diagnosis is to save the patient.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: thejeans on July 18, 2016, 02:36:53 PM
Sir Wolf, thanks for your 'off the hip' figure, but after my ride with TheJeans Friday, I surely won't shoot from the hip with my next move. Fingers crossed, I hope I just need coilovers and wheels.
I got a nice ride, smoke included, in TheJeans's MSM. I was gleefully overwhelmed by how absurd yet proper it felt.
A set of FM coilovers ought to sort the whole ride situation out nicely. Mr Jeans's slammed, track ready demon took highway bumps worlds better than mine. Melted the curves like butter. It's time I gave up 'the look'  of 17's. Jeans feels right - 16s are meant for the Miata. The ride revolution was a shock.
A surprise was the sound. Top down, ripping around, the noise was superb. An intake/exhaust upgrade is going to sound so sweet, but not Civic Ricer 'Fabulus'.
Hope my Monday diagnosis is to save the patient.


I have 15x9's on my car, but it was great to meet you, and I'm glad I could help!


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: '95MSM on July 18, 2016, 10:10:40 PM
^  ;D

I had almost replied yesterday that FIFTEENS are meant for NA & NB Miatas.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: SilverMiataRacer on July 18, 2016, 10:15:00 PM
I thought 16's sounded odd too as good tires as getting scarce in Miata sizes with those rims


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: drizzay222 on July 19, 2016, 01:32:24 AM
Option c: if your car is shot buy a cheap NA or NB and swap your goodies.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: TurboToy on July 20, 2016, 11:37:50 AM
Ah, my mistake on those 15's. It filled the wheelwells pretty nice, but I suppose it is due to the suspension.
I guess that's fairly streetable, no bottoming out?

Unfortunately I am still on hold regarding my repairs. My buddy got busy and had to delay until Friday... probably Monday.
I have gotten quite a direction so far - hope a good update is in the future.
Thanks yinz guys.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: TurboToy on July 23, 2016, 08:12:50 PM
 :(    <- that there's my impression of a 'Grand Touring' trim. I hope it's a softie suspension,
and the Club PRHT of 13-14-15? are tighter.
I drove two today, and they seem fun, chuckable, but in a rolly poly kinda way. 
The sound is meh...okay. The top is quite a nice job. But it lacked that MSM snappiness.
So my fingers AND toes are crossed I can be saved with a coilover job.

Anyone heard of TPG tuning, outside Pittsburgh?  They wrench up turbo Mazda 6s, Subies and such. If my guy
falls through this week again, I ought to just truck it up there if it's a ripe time for it. Haven't called yet there.

I'll search around a bit, but I'd love to see a poll somewhere, the best wheel/tire/coilover setup, if you had
start from scratch?
Hope yinz are having a nice weekend n' at!




Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: '95MSM on July 24, 2016, 01:05:34 AM
If trying to keep to a reasonable budget, I love Koni Sports (yellows) with FM springs, any lightweight (<11 lbs) 15" wheel and more or less any summer performance tire. My last two sets have been Dunlop Star Specs.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: rotorglow on July 25, 2016, 03:53:06 AM

best wheel/tire/coilover setup, if you had
start from scratch?

There are almost as many opinions on this as there are people on the forum. Some of those opinions might even be well thought-out!

I went with Koni yellows and 550/375 springs on Ground Control collars, because I knew a lot of fast people who used Konis, and the FM springs felt too soft to me on the dearly-(for many) departed NB Tokicos in another MSM. FM never really had much good to say about Konis until Tokico stopped making Illuminas for the NB, but people have been winning on them for a long time.

The price was right, and though I don't remember the exact timeline, there wasn't anything that suited me in the VMaxx line at the time.

550 in front is definitely firm, and it's the practical limit for the Yellows.  Stiffer than that and you need the short-body Koni Race shocks at double the price. The next time I pull the suspension apart or if money was no object), I'll put Xidas in, at 700/400 or (less likely) 800/500 springs. Car is increasingly focused on autocross, now that I have a big German car for long trips.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: '95MSM on July 25, 2016, 06:23:02 AM
To make comparing spring rates easier:

Source      front/rear      ratio
OEM MSM    215/158      1.36
FM springs   318/233      1.36
"typical" Ground Control Koni kit 375/275 1.36 (lots of variation from GC - they'll sell you almost any combo of spring rates)
Vmaxx         391/258      1.52
Spec Miata   700/325      2.15

Notice a trend in the first three?


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: millsj on July 25, 2016, 11:54:03 AM
Why does the SM suspension run such a stiff front spring?


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: '95MSM on July 25, 2016, 04:49:56 PM
I'm not entirely sure. It may be the result of trying to making an open diff work, thereby avoiding the expense of a Torsen (I can't imagine any of the original viscous diffs from the 1.6 cars still working). A lot of roll stiffness in the front end helps keep the inside rear wheel from going up in smoke at corner exit. SM is a gateway class, with a lot of new drivers. They may have designed in some push to keep each new crop of drivers alive.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: millsj on July 25, 2016, 05:46:22 PM
I have read that many SM drivers are able to turn some really fast lap times IN SPITE of the suspension, not because of it.  Sounds like the spring set-up is one of the reasons people think that the SM suspension is not the optimum set-up.  There are obviously better set-ups available on the market.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: TurboToy on August 25, 2016, 11:28:09 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, I finally have contact. This well-recommended Euro tuner mechanic has returned from vacay. Amidst Audi A8s sittin' on frame rails, Porsche 928s, and other oddities, I am gonna wedge in the MSM Monday morning.
So we'll get 'er up, ideally he'll know what to check on, after an epic curb thonk, and it'll be fixable.
Moss Miata has a fine looking set of Tein coilovers, and I notice Flyin' Miata has a suspension kit or three. Heck, even the 4H Club lemonade stand has Miata bits. Any particular horror stories or suggestions in this realm would be appreciated, before I pull the trigger in ordering a suspension kit online. (Question- Would ordering a complete coilover kit bolt in and around existing arms/anti roll bars and such?) Just seeking to prepare myself for another bump on what this bill should run.
Let's say 5 hrs labor, $500
Shipped coilovers -     1000
New 15" wheels           500?
Tires.                             500:
$2500 total... this is a cautiously optimistic guess, assumes only a strut or two got blown. No idea what labor is, but it's hot and that's a fair bit of futzing around.
So $2500 for starters, to get her huggin' the road like a real demon. Having that all done, I gotta go lil' enchilda type upgrade- Another $1500? Plus a t-belt (water pump?) too... tax n' labor, $1000.
So $2500 for wheels/tires/suspension, $2500ish for lil' ench type upgrades and a t-belt. So $5k really ought sort this puppy out, and I'd have a brand-newish, mean mudda MSM right? I hope, right! Just hoping for some further fine advice before I click any 'order' buttons. Thanks gents!


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: TurboToy on September 03, 2016, 08:23:12 PM
Status Update - Joyous news all around. Frank got 'er up, reckons a coilover job will sort her out.
While up, he suggested sway bar end links too. Probably $500 or 6, to mount 4 new tires, wheels,
and the suspension replacement. Those green TEIN coilovers look nice, on MossMiata.com
And for wheels, http://www.discounttiredirect.com/direct/searchWheelsByVehicleAndSize.do?bp=&yr=2004&wd=16&rw=&vid=008075
I think I'm gonna roll on 16s, a little more wall to it, still fills up the wheel wells.
They weigh 14.9 lbs, not too shabby right?
Have a great Labor day gents!


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: '95MSM on September 05, 2016, 03:46:28 PM
If you have looked at available tires for 16's, then you should be good to go. If you haven't, you might take a look. Lots more 15s out there.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: TurboToy on September 06, 2016, 07:39:46 PM
Well the buttons are clicked, and now the anxious waiting begins.
From MossMiata.com, I got-
   - 4 new sway bar end links (suggested by the mechanic when he looked at my car)
   - Street Advance Coilover Kit by Tein
Total $761
I went to Tire Rack for the wheels/tires, and they had a nice set in stock.
    -New Wheels - TR Motorsport C1 16x7s. 15lbs seemed pretty light for the price,   
   I really like the finish, and they sorta look like those bad-a$$ 6UL wheels
 -Tires - I stuck with what I had before - BF Goodrich G-Force Sport Comp-2s.
Total $857.
   Should be about a week or so for things to arrive. Very excited for the tranformation.
Thanks for input from yinz, and most definitely to Sir Jeans - the ride in his slammed screamer
sure kept me in the MSM fold.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: TurboToy on September 08, 2016, 12:01:26 PM
Wheels are in, and awaiting the coilover kit/links.
Does the installation of an aftermarket coilover kit work alright with the existing MazdaSpeed version's anti-roll bars?
I'm a total newbie to this, but a greatly hope all this bolts in and around the fine pieces already added to our car.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: TheBigChill on September 08, 2016, 01:10:36 PM
Quote
Does the installation of an aftermarket coilover kit work alright with the existing MazdaSpeed version's anti-roll bars?


Yes.  Though, how you choose to adjust your dampers can potentially change what size bars you may want to use moving forward.  Generally speaking though, just run it.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: thejeans on September 08, 2016, 02:51:51 PM
youll be fine with the stock bars for road use. you rode in my car and i still have both stock bars.

glad to hear its getting all fixed up. we'll have to meet up once its back together


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: '95MSM on September 08, 2016, 08:57:42 PM
I disagree about shocks - they should not be allowed to control the final attitude of the car in a corner, only how it responds initially. Any shock set so stiff that it limits the degree of roll is so stiff that it has traded away grip for a "feel". IMHO, so much of our perception about how a car should handle is based on what we see in the top professional roadracing series, but a racing car's attitude for the last 30 years has had more to do with making the aero derived downforce consistent than anything else.

Having written that, if shocks are all you have to play with, go for it.

The attribute that you need to pay attention to is spring rate. As long as the ratio of front to rear spring stays fairly constant, stock bars will work well.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: msmny on September 10, 2016, 02:07:11 PM
 8) interesting thread, looking forward for more info


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: TurboToy on September 15, 2016, 02:30:10 PM
Joy is surely building! I found the following youtube review of an NB. This is the 1st image I've seen on how mine will sit, same wheels/tires and lowered. Not sure if there's any offset thing going on though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTXQ8s8xhz4

It goes in the shop Friday, and hopefully I'll have some time next week with the guy to adjust the settings using his lift. I figure set it halfway down heightwise and go from there. Pretty sure I won't need a lift to adjust the damper firmness. Tein knobs are on the bottom apparently.

I didn't watch much of the video, just froze on the frames of stance. She looks so nasty, crouched on those fat tires.

Joy further fumes as it seems Lil' Enchiladas are in stock a Flyin' Miata! It sure looks to be a fun fall if all goes to plan.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: TurboToy on September 15, 2016, 02:41:15 PM
PS- I just emailed sales@flyin'miata about ordering the little enchilada along with a timing belt/water pump kit. If anyone in earshot works there and wants dibs on the sale, please fire me a message at EGold82@hotmail.com


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: m3fan4ever on September 15, 2016, 03:56:06 PM
I've got the Tein SA coilovers installed on my car. Two things on install:

The height setting they recommend in the install instructions made me rub a lot so be prepared to adjust them quite a bit to get them where you want them. I'm set up at about 12.5" front and 13" rear (wheel center to fender. Can't remember my pinch weld heights off the top of my head) and I still rub the front slightly over big bumps in turns. I am on 205/50r15 tires so YMMV.

The damping adjusters are on the tops of the shocks. You can get to the fronts and the passenger rear easily but I had to bend part of the plate that blocks off the trunk area to get to the driver side rear shock without needing tools every time. I think I'm set at 6 or 8 clicks from full stiff if I remember right and it is good enough for my daily driver.

Also, I've been thinking about getting 9kg/mm springs for the front to balance the suspension better. I am pretty happy with the setup now compared to my 100k mile stock setup, but I got a really good deal on the coilovers. I'm not sure I'd be as pleased if I had paid full price.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: TurboToy on September 15, 2016, 04:13:28 PM
Yikes - thanks for that heads up m3fan. I was hoping going to 16"s would avoid rubbing unless I really slammed it down. But I'll remember your measurements and hope my situation works out without rubbing.
Nice to hear you got a good deal. I was in a bit of a bind, and not really looking to score the best deal, buying randomly from some supplier on the net. I probably paid a bit more buying straight from MossMiata's catalogue, but I wasn't looking too far to seek the best price.

Bummer about the adjustments, as I thought dampers had knobs on the bottom. Perhaps I was looking at a different set up. Glad to hear the Teins work well for you overall.

Just to confirm what I'm *pretty sure* think I know-  to adjust the height, you do need to lift the car, remove wheels, and spin those rings around, correct? (I just hope to have time at the shop to sort all this out, as the old lady warden at my condo will write me up if I so much as windex a window on the property, let alone take wheels off and so forth)


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: rotorglow on September 15, 2016, 05:04:23 PM
Bummer about the adjustments, as I thought dampers had knobs on the bottom. Perhaps I was looking at a different set up.

Many do (Tokico, VMaxx).  But altering the trunk panel to get access to a top adjuster is not difficult.  It can be bent nicely so it won't slit your wrist, and the trunk liner can be stuck to it to look nice.  As for the passenger side, It's just a matter of cutting a small hole in the part of the plastic liner that wraps down over the damper.  The rest of the carpet covers that corner so it can't be seen.

I prefer top adjusters to rolling around on the ground looking for a knob.  YMMV.



Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: m3fan4ever on September 15, 2016, 06:11:16 PM

Bummer about the adjustments, as I thought dampers had knobs on the bottom. Perhaps I was looking at a different set up. Glad to hear the Teins work well for you overall.

Just to confirm what I'm *pretty sure* think I know-  to adjust the height, you do need to lift the car, remove wheels, and spin those rings around, correct? (I just hope to have time at the shop to sort all this out, as the old lady warden at my condo will write me up if I so much as windex a window on the property, let alone take wheels off and so forth)

I agree with what rotorglow said in the last post about the adjustment knobs.

As for the height adjustment, you are correct. There is an adjustment nut with a locking nut. The proper tools come with the coilovers. It doesn't take long once you get the process down. Obviously the first one takes the longest, then you can get the rest pretty quickly by setting them the same as the first and going from there.

One thing to think about: if it is going to be difficult to adjust the height later, make sure to set it up slightly high at first since the springs will settle. If you set it perfect as soon as you install them it will probably be too low after a couple weeks.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: '95MSM on September 16, 2016, 04:46:53 AM
Good springs don't settle, but pre-load in the suspension bushings will. If I had a spring change on me, it would be going straight back to the manufacturer.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: TurboToy on September 23, 2016, 12:15:22 AM
Eek... true love awaits! She's done, but I have a looong night to stew over it before getting it Friday. Hate to put a price on love, but... did I get raked over? $880 out the door...!? She'll probably ride amazingly, and I'll be all entranced by it, and think $880 was a steal...but isn't that a bit stiff?
For this labor, no parts really;
-Install new coilovers
-Install new cobalt end links, on original sway bars
-Replace 2 wheel bolts, and just mount new wheels/pre-balanced tires from tire rack.
- $160 of it was for 4 wheel alignment, which I thought was $90-100 tops?
The mechanic said she's all stitched up, handles tight, good to go. Hope the pickup and debut ride goes well tomorrow. (I really won't feel 100% at ease until I see all wheel gaps are equal, and the coilovers are at the same ride
height setting; I'll lose my marbles if the coilovers are all at different heights to present the illusion of a straight chassis and proper stance).
Question - I guess part of the $880 revolves around convenience of disposal. Should I have all the old stuff chucked into his dumpster? I'm thinking I should try to load the old bits in my Subie and hold on to them.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: '95MSM on September 23, 2016, 12:39:03 AM
$620 for the non-alignment work seems pretty stiff unless they actually (& properly) corner weighted the car. Four wheel scales properly leveled require an investment normal shops rarely make. They have to make that back some way.

I wouldn't get too worked up if the spring perches are different side to side. If they are grossly off, I would ask for an explanation, but you whacked the car pretty hard and only a perfectly square chassis with perfect weight distribution will go together with the left and right shocks set exactly the same.

I might ask them if they set the end-links while the car was on the alignment rack. If they say no, I'd want to hear them tell me they leveled the car (all four wheels, or at least level side to side front and rear) and set the links for zero pre-load. If they just installed them set to equal lengths, you didn't get the very thing adjustable end links were invented for.

I would have happily done the non-alignment work for $600. Very happily, and I've got the scales and what not to do it.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: mr_hyde on September 23, 2016, 07:28:14 AM
Question - I guess part of the $880 revolves around convenience of disposal. Should I have all the old stuff chucked into his dumpster? I'm thinking I should try to load the old bits in my Subie and hold on to them.

What are the old bits again?  Generally, keep everything - they will have some value and if not, will go to recycle easy enough.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: TurboToy on September 24, 2016, 08:19:46 PM

I'll also pick up the dirty ol' original suspension parts, which I'll hold on to as well.

I'm going back there Monday, in my dd to pick up the parts. My mechanic said we'll
have to 'adjust it' once everything settles, so I'll bring it back eventually for
a lookie loo, and to get the ball rolling on talks of lil' enchilada install.
Not sure what 'adjustments' he could be talking about though.

The ride is simply joyous. It takes bumps like a brand new, much different car.
It's not at all stiff like it use to be on the ol' boat achors, original deal. The
bumps are felt, but it's not the jar it used to be. And of course, she's glued
to the road, not much lean to speak of either. I guess I can't really find a fault?

Other than the damn droop is there! The driver front wheel is tucked up 3/4"
up in there. No one ever spots it, but it's all I see! I need to look closer at the
settings, but it wasn't drooping when I picked it up. Ah, mysteries.

Maybe the connecting points (dunno the term), where the control arms connect to
the chassis? Could that entire assembly have been folded in?

Despite the droop, it was a good move, chucking $2.5k at a car worth... well, I'd
rather not think what it was worth, pre-fix.

Rookie question of the day is...
Having kept the same tire, BFG g force, but gone from 17 to 16" wheel,
with more sidewall... do the tire pressures remain the same as recommended
on the door? Hey 29 in front, 32 in the rear. I didn't even have to check! Pro-am now!



Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: '95MSM on September 25, 2016, 03:34:32 PM
To get the "perfect" tire pressure that reflects how you use the car you'll need to wear out a set.

I'm on 205/50x15 with 7" wide wheels. 25 psi (cold) gives me very even tire wear, but I will kick them up 3 or 4 psi if I'm going to spend a day running hard through the twisties.


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: TurboToy on September 25, 2016, 07:46:18 PM
Much thanks for the edit, Mr. Moderator Sir.
I just set the tire pressure pretty much at your recommendation, 95MSM.
Just did the door card's 29fr, 32rr. I hope that correct despite ditching 205/40/17 and using 205/45/16's.
Evidently the tires were shipped and put on at 40psi all around.
I just do boring city drives with a good ol' twisty road here and there, maybe 5k a year.
I haven't driven it much since setting the tires, but I suppose it's a tad more absorbent?


Title: Re: Moving On; Beyond MSM
Post by: '95MSM on September 26, 2016, 05:27:31 PM
Yes, the tire will ride nicer at lower pressures, but I set mine there because they wear more uniformly. The better ride was a by-product.