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Author Topic: Square top JDM intake manifold  (Read 4866 times)
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bigx5murf
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« on: December 18, 2011, 01:44:58 PM »

I saw a few discussions on this over at mt.net, it's supposed to flow better that our stocker, but didn't find any hard evidence of that.  It's difficult, and fairly costly to obtain, and supposedly someone bought up and is hoarding most of the supply in the US.

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SilverMiataRacer
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« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2011, 02:02:24 PM »

You mean like this??

http://miataroadster.com/mazda/mazda_intake_manifolds/mzjftim/i-443802.aspx
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Larry

4 Miatas but who's counting!!   Cool

White Knight    1991 Crystal White   #99 CSP
Silver Bullet     1992 Silverstone     #17 SM2  FM I+ Turbo  (Gone but not forgotten)
Honey B          1992 Sunburst Yellow #99 SM2 J.R. M45
Whooosh         2004 Titanium MazdaSpeed MX5  #403 of 4000
Subie              2006 Steel Gray WRX STi Cobb Stage 2 (Gone but not forgotten)
No name yet    2008 Velocity Yellow Tintcoat Z06 Corvette
No Name yet    2014 Ashen Grey Metallic Camaro 2SS 1LE

“There are only three sports: mountain climbing, bull fighting, and motor racing. All the rest are merely games.”
– Ernest Hemingway
magnus
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« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2011, 02:20:19 PM »

http://flyinmiata.com/projects/current_projects.php?UID=1128

A little bit more info
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The_Guff
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217 WHP/208 TQ @ 10.5 PSI UNTUNED!


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« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2011, 02:22:11 PM »

FM did a dyno comparison on a N/A stroker motor between the VICS manifold, VTCS removed manifold and JDM/EUDM manifold.  The JDM manifold gave better hp, ~10whp up top but the VTCS removed manifold had better power before that.  They're supposed to test the manifolds out on a forced induction motor sometime soon.  I have the VTCS removed in my manifold and have noticed a difference but if their is enough of a gain to be had from the JDM manifold, I'd get one.  

Right now with what is shown from the dyno plot comparison, MSM's don't have the redline sufficient enough to support switching to one.  Unless you can rev over our stock 6,500rpm redline.
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The_Guff
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« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2011, 02:23:33 PM »

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Velocity Red MSM #2487/4000
'95MSM
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« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2011, 07:02:13 PM »

I seem to recall a pic down the throat of the square-top, showing that it did not have the egr "tube" cast into  VTCS and VICS.  If you have a steady hand with a die grinder, you can remove the egr tube.  I got a little overzealous on my VICS manifold and went all the way through the lower wall of the casting, so no seat of the pants evaluation.  I have not researched EGR "tube" removal and have no idea if anyone else has done it.  I wonder if adding another 90 to 100 sq mm to the entry of the plenum would equalize top end power between the three manifolds.

Getting rid of the VTCS half-butterflies and shafts is most of the gain, but there are cast shoulders in the manifold runners for the butterflies to seat to.  To get the most out of a VTCS delete you need to eliminate those seats.  Otherwise they will continue to disturb flow a bit.

The equalizer tube that joins #1 runner to the plenum near #4 on the square top is interesting.  My guess (and it is only that) is that the engineer was trying to boost flow through the plenum and balance the front runners to the rear.
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'05 running gear + '95 body = Miata Hybrid

3.63 ring & pinion FM content: Blouch compressor mod, FM-Link, i/c & no-MAF intake.   BEGi: Stainless SGDP w/ metal core performance cat.   Custom stuff: Compressor clocked downward w/ new i/c pipe, big radius throttle elbow, 2.5" mid-pipe w/ Hushpower II, dual 2" axle-back w/ open Supertrapps, Toyota 4 pc cop ignition

245.2 whp on default FM-Link maps (with OEM midpipe)
The_Guff
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« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2011, 11:43:08 PM »

Here's more information, including measurements; http://www.mazdaspeedy.com/2010/02/2001-mx5-18-sport-inlet-manifold-pics.html.
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dvdreith
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« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2011, 09:19:30 AM »

We can't run the vcts delete in stock Ecu.. but what about changing the bore on the us one? I'm sure it is worth the time? Maybe having a shop weld a larger TB adapter, and port the runners as best as possible. As well as the intake ports on the head.

Is there any conclusive data suggesting that these ideas are bunk?
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Full Built motor:
Acl race bearings
84mm Fm weisco pistons
Carrillo super A beam rods
Ati damper
Arp studs
1mm oversized valves
Titanium springs & retainers
Port, polish, unshroud valves
Custom powdercoated valve cover
custom l/a intercooler

TURBO:
Ballistic motorsports custom Turbo manifold.
Borg Warner efr 6258



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SilverMiataRacer
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« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2011, 09:25:58 AM »

We can't run the vcts delete in stock Ecu

Are you sure???  I'm pretty sure there have been a number of people that have done this.
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Larry

4 Miatas but who's counting!!   Cool

White Knight    1991 Crystal White   #99 CSP
Silver Bullet     1992 Silverstone     #17 SM2  FM I+ Turbo  (Gone but not forgotten)
Honey B          1992 Sunburst Yellow #99 SM2 J.R. M45
Whooosh         2004 Titanium MazdaSpeed MX5  #403 of 4000
Subie              2006 Steel Gray WRX STi Cobb Stage 2 (Gone but not forgotten)
No name yet    2008 Velocity Yellow Tintcoat Z06 Corvette
No Name yet    2014 Ashen Grey Metallic Camaro 2SS 1LE

“There are only three sports: mountain climbing, bull fighting, and motor racing. All the rest are merely games.”
– Ernest Hemingway
The_Guff
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« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2011, 09:35:59 AM »

I've been running a VTCS deleted IM for a year and a half with no CEL's or engine management. Only problem I get is the cold start issue where the car drives horribly unless it's warmed up. It idles fine and has no other issues. All I do is start the car up and let it warm up for ~5 minutes before I take it out. Once everything is warmed up, it's good to go!
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dvdreith
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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2011, 04:43:37 AM »

I've been running a VTCS deleted IM for a year and a half with no CEL's or engine management. Only problem I get is the cold start issue where the car drives horribly unless it's warmed up. It idles fine and has no other issues. All I do is start the car up and let it warm up for ~5 minutes before I take it out. Once everything is warmed up, it's good to go!

Oh! Good to know...
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Full Built motor:
Acl race bearings
84mm Fm weisco pistons
Carrillo super A beam rods
Ati damper
Arp studs
1mm oversized valves
Titanium springs & retainers
Port, polish, unshroud valves
Custom powdercoated valve cover
custom l/a intercooler

TURBO:
Ballistic motorsports custom Turbo manifold.
Borg Warner efr 6258



Shoes:
2nd gen 949racing 6ul's in nickel
wrapped in Nitto NT01's
that sit under BC coilovers
SilverMiataRacer
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« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2011, 06:23:14 AM »

Did you need to leave the vacuum actuator attached or did you remove it and plug the hose?
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Larry

4 Miatas but who's counting!!   Cool

White Knight    1991 Crystal White   #99 CSP
Silver Bullet     1992 Silverstone     #17 SM2  FM I+ Turbo  (Gone but not forgotten)
Honey B          1992 Sunburst Yellow #99 SM2 J.R. M45
Whooosh         2004 Titanium MazdaSpeed MX5  #403 of 4000
Subie              2006 Steel Gray WRX STi Cobb Stage 2 (Gone but not forgotten)
No name yet    2008 Velocity Yellow Tintcoat Z06 Corvette
No Name yet    2014 Ashen Grey Metallic Camaro 2SS 1LE

“There are only three sports: mountain climbing, bull fighting, and motor racing. All the rest are merely games.”
– Ernest Hemingway
The_Guff
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217 WHP/208 TQ @ 10.5 PSI UNTUNED!


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« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2011, 09:21:22 AM »

Unfortunately, I haven't had the car at my house very much this year between paint, fabrication and install. Otherwise, I'd go to the garage and snap some pics and confirm for you, my memory is fuzzy! I do know the actuator is removed, that's in my parts box. Not sure about the hose that goes to it, but since the actuator is gone, I assume nothing can be connected there.

I'm hosting a holiday party at one of my schools this evening, my students shop is right down the road so I'll take a look and snap some pics.
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Velocity Red MSM #2487/4000
The_Guff
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« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2011, 09:37:55 AM »

Looked at some photos online and refreshed my memory, I miss my car! Haha.

All the holes the VTCS system left were welded shut and grinded down. Casting lines were removed from the inside but had to go to polish so the shop couldn't do all they wanted with it. It was good what they did, they just wanted to do better.

I capped the vacuum hose that run to the VTCS for a while and then found a connector from my spare parts box that would eliminate the extra hose. It had two connections instead of three. If I had enough silicon hose leftover, I'd have eliminated that connection as well and made it one piece.

The car's had about ~3-5k miles with the VTCS removed and the only ill effect I know of is the rough cold start.

Two years prior to doing my turbo upgrade and VTCS delete, I dyno'd at ~187whp. Last year, I dyno'd at 217whp with those two things added and same boost level. Weather conditions were similar although the dyno type was different.
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Velocity Red MSM #2487/4000
'95MSM
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« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2011, 08:58:11 PM »

The rough running after a cold start is interesting. We've done very nearly identical jobs deleting VTCS (I bonded sections of shaft into the holes rather than welding them).  I have an aftermarket ECU and have tuned the params for cold starts.  My car cold starts and idles well, though I don't often test it with sub-20f weather.

IMHO, you should be able to compensate for whatever differences the VTCS delete made.  I.e. you aren't stuck with a bad cold idle if you delete VTCS.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 09:01:33 PM by '95MSM » Logged

'05 running gear + '95 body = Miata Hybrid

3.63 ring & pinion FM content: Blouch compressor mod, FM-Link, i/c & no-MAF intake.   BEGi: Stainless SGDP w/ metal core performance cat.   Custom stuff: Compressor clocked downward w/ new i/c pipe, big radius throttle elbow, 2.5" mid-pipe w/ Hushpower II, dual 2" axle-back w/ open Supertrapps, Toyota 4 pc cop ignition

245.2 whp on default FM-Link maps (with OEM midpipe)
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