Mazda-speed.com
July 04, 2020, 07:19:49 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Mazda-speed.com is no longer open and is now a read-only site. For Mazdaspeed Miata discussions, please visit the Mazdaspeed section on Miata.net.
 
   Home   Help Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Hydra 2.7 EBC Settings. Brainstorming, thoughts and help  (Read 36331 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Canyonfive
National Champion BSP
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 1661



WWW
« on: April 23, 2013, 07:41:37 PM »

My goal is to get the ebc tuning and working. Ill post what i have done so far and ill try all reasonable suggestions. That said I have MBC that works and im trying the EBC for fun so lets leave the mbc vs ebc for another thread.

How this stuff works so far......

The Solenoid is a 3 port PWM based controller. at 0% duty cycle (more on that later) it sends 100% of the air from your boost source to the wastegate. At 100% duty cycle it would send 0% of the air to your wastegate. If the power fails to the ebc all the air will go to your wastegate so it "fails safe".

Easy explanation of duty cycle. In our case its how much air to bleed off. The solenoid is pulsing on and off. Duty cycle is what % of the "cycle" the valve is open not sending air to the wastegate.

 Frequency is how many times a second that happens. See here >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKKcVR-2a1I

Sweet webinars!

Helpful hints on boost control plumbing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3AR3D7t3p4&hd=1
PID parameters explained http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16Clfh5eBzg&hd=1
PID Tuning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SefKQb9y_B4&hd=1
Helpful hints on boost control plumbing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3AR3D7t3p4&hd=1
Closed loop boost control setup http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_EP5AdvuPk


Next I plugged it in set the max boost and logged. Min duty 0 max 45 (then 47.5) p=200 i=0 d=0 starting: 2500


Too little max duty cycle and the EBC never got to the target boost of 8 psi. Increasing the max to 47.5 allowed it to bleed enough air to increase the psi to my target and then some. Boost peaked at 9 then undershot to 6 then overshot to 9 then under to 6.

 My experience with this whole process is that i find that i cant get the whole system to react quick enough. Too much overshoot and undershoot. The system needs to bleed more air as the rpms increase and more quickly after going over my target. Then add duty cycle more quickly after undershooting the target. 

With the duty cycle set too low there is a boost drop off in the upper rpms.



 I think because at higher rpms there is more of a pressure drop across the intercooler. So a max duty that gives me a crazy boost spike to 13 and fuel cut may not be enough to hold a stable boost to redline. Knowing this I moved the boost source from the nipple on the outlet pipe to after the intercooler in the same pipe i used for my GFB BOV.



1/4" ID pip thread to nipple. I secured with a nut form the electrical section same dia used there.... nothing in hardware.  laugh

This seemed to give the flat response i wanted with no boost dropoff.




Any thoughts on ways to tell the hydra to lower the duty cycle faster (putting more pressure on the wastegate) to better catch the boost. and thus increase it faster to help with the undershoot? This is my main issue currently. On a side note I upped the frequency from 48hx to to 192hz to put my max duty cycle up in the mid 50's instead of around 40 to give it a bigger range to operate. This has resulted in less overshoot and less undershoot. Perhaps even higher will give better response? PID settings?



All and all its getting better. Now what can I try and Why to improve this?
Logged

www.miataspeed.com My YouTube Channel
My BSP build thread
Ebay IC, Custome Koni 2812's by Guy Akney, FM Intake, FM DP, Hallman Pro Rx @ 10psi, GFB VTA BOV, Carbotech Brake Pads F/R, 15 X 10 Custom Wheels, Hooiser A7's,  Memory Fab/ lotus seats , Custom from sway bar , Muffler Delete, Hydra 2.7 EMS Launch Control Flat shift E85 , 550RC's, Fuel Lab fuel filter,
Canyonfive
National Champion BSP
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 1661



WWW
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2013, 12:30:55 AM »

Here is a photo of moving to 48Hz to 192HZ

Logged

www.miataspeed.com My YouTube Channel
My BSP build thread
Ebay IC, Custome Koni 2812's by Guy Akney, FM Intake, FM DP, Hallman Pro Rx @ 10psi, GFB VTA BOV, Carbotech Brake Pads F/R, 15 X 10 Custom Wheels, Hooiser A7's,  Memory Fab/ lotus seats , Custom from sway bar , Muffler Delete, Hydra 2.7 EMS Launch Control Flat shift E85 , 550RC's, Fuel Lab fuel filter,
Canyonfive
National Champion BSP
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 1661



WWW
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2013, 07:42:33 AM »

More Testing.... Lots of ups and downs but I think im finally headed in the right direction!

Basically any pid setting i used resulted in garbage. Therefore garbage in garbage out. Meaning my settings not the pid algorithm..

Did you know you can log that pid algorithm in the hydra? Neat stuff.. surprised no one has mentioned it ANYWHERE. Below its the nifty green line



So no amount of pid worked. In any reasonable combination. Nothing resembled anything I saw anywhere else. So after reading around it seems most people run these valves slower. So I brought mine down from 192HZ to 16HZ which even venting all the air it could (at 100% its still not really 100%; see pwm stuff again to understand why) it wouldn't get up to my target boost. So I then went up to 24hz (other places say 19.5 but there is no option for it here)

Voila.. 100% shows a MAX of 10psi overshooting by 2 psi which is something I can live with during the PID testing. here it is 160p0i0d at 24hz 6th gear pull on a cold night.....



Now someone else please have a go trying PID settings.
Logged

www.miataspeed.com My YouTube Channel
My BSP build thread
Ebay IC, Custome Koni 2812's by Guy Akney, FM Intake, FM DP, Hallman Pro Rx @ 10psi, GFB VTA BOV, Carbotech Brake Pads F/R, 15 X 10 Custom Wheels, Hooiser A7's,  Memory Fab/ lotus seats , Custom from sway bar , Muffler Delete, Hydra 2.7 EMS Launch Control Flat shift E85 , 550RC's, Fuel Lab fuel filter,
scotty b
They called you exotic. Which is people talk for awesome!
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 2445


Just another lost weekend, need another vacation.


« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2013, 05:13:46 AM »

So, uh, how much experience do you have with PID controllers?
Logged

'04 TiG, BEGI Re-flash; 450 cc injectors; FM IC; FM turbo back exhaust; BEGI intake; FM Oil cooler, Walbro 255HP, FM cross flow and Spal fans; GFB-BOV; MBC; Moroso air/oil separator; Nickel 6UL 15x8 with 225/45/15 BFG Rival S; V-Maxx Xxtreme; SSK; Wilwood 6 piston front, 4 piston rear brakes;  HDHCDD; Sparco Sprint V seats; Simpson 6-pt harness system; A-pillar dual-pod with boost and oil temp gauges, #3838

2006 C230 Sport, 2.5L V6, 6spd MT.  My favorite daily driver ever (so far).

Used to own:  '04 TiG, Big Enchilada, FM brake upgrade, Autometer boost gauge, Motegi Traklites, #2082.

My mind is a swirling miasma of scintillating thoughts and turgid ideas.
Canyonfive
National Champion BSP
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 1661



WWW
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2013, 06:57:25 AM »

So, uh, how much experience do you have with PID controllers?

None please tell me what I'm missing. I tried putting all the pid to zero and I still have issue overboosting.   Ill post later what the logs look like.
Logged

www.miataspeed.com My YouTube Channel
My BSP build thread
Ebay IC, Custome Koni 2812's by Guy Akney, FM Intake, FM DP, Hallman Pro Rx @ 10psi, GFB VTA BOV, Carbotech Brake Pads F/R, 15 X 10 Custom Wheels, Hooiser A7's,  Memory Fab/ lotus seats , Custom from sway bar , Muffler Delete, Hydra 2.7 EMS Launch Control Flat shift E85 , 550RC's, Fuel Lab fuel filter,
scotty b
They called you exotic. Which is people talk for awesome!
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 2445


Just another lost weekend, need another vacation.


« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2013, 07:36:19 AM »

Here's a real basic rundown.  Think of having 2 lines, one is your program (or ideal) and the other is your actual.  The job of PID is to keep the actual line on top of the program.  In an instant, you are at one point on your actual line, while the computer is looking at one point on the ideal line (the setpoint).  The difference is the error (well, sort of Wink )

P is proportional.  This is your basic gain adjust.  Bigger gain yields a higher basic output, and will be modified by the I and D further.

I is integral.  It's looking at the difference between program and actual, and every so often it integrates (or adds) more error to try and return to setpoint.  Your 'I' value is actually the time constant (IIRC, you should verify in your manual), so a lower value will make it more aggressive.  'I' also contributes to overshoot, since it continues to add error until it crosses the program, and then starts subtracting error (this is called 'wind-up' and can contribute to oscillations).  In a PID, only 'I' will put your actual back onto your program.

D is derivative.  It's a rate-of-change control.  If actual is on program, then the lines just start to diverge, before P or I start to respond, D will start building the error signal, moving the actual toward the program.  This is sometimes called the 'anticipatory' term.

Here's a more in-depth write up on how it works

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller

I'll bet you can find good user friendly stuff with a google search that will help in practical application.
Logged

'04 TiG, BEGI Re-flash; 450 cc injectors; FM IC; FM turbo back exhaust; BEGI intake; FM Oil cooler, Walbro 255HP, FM cross flow and Spal fans; GFB-BOV; MBC; Moroso air/oil separator; Nickel 6UL 15x8 with 225/45/15 BFG Rival S; V-Maxx Xxtreme; SSK; Wilwood 6 piston front, 4 piston rear brakes;  HDHCDD; Sparco Sprint V seats; Simpson 6-pt harness system; A-pillar dual-pod with boost and oil temp gauges, #3838

2006 C230 Sport, 2.5L V6, 6spd MT.  My favorite daily driver ever (so far).

Used to own:  '04 TiG, Big Enchilada, FM brake upgrade, Autometer boost gauge, Motegi Traklites, #2082.

My mind is a swirling miasma of scintillating thoughts and turgid ideas.
Canyonfive
National Champion BSP
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 1661



WWW
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2013, 06:46:56 PM »

Right. I got that. If it was using the pid where the situation in steady state than that would be no issue. eg; temperature of coolant with a fan.

There are physical limitations in this system that i think need to be programmed to be taken into account.

1) a duty cycle high enough to vent enough air to close wastegate at the upper rpms after the first boost rise causing said rise at 4k to wayyy overboost. (if you look at the second post)

2) Usually it cant add enough air back onto the wastegate quick enough to prevent boost spike (needs to be more predictive? more agressive at 4k less so after)

3) Then pull enough air off to build boost back
Logged

www.miataspeed.com My YouTube Channel
My BSP build thread
Ebay IC, Custome Koni 2812's by Guy Akney, FM Intake, FM DP, Hallman Pro Rx @ 10psi, GFB VTA BOV, Carbotech Brake Pads F/R, 15 X 10 Custom Wheels, Hooiser A7's,  Memory Fab/ lotus seats , Custom from sway bar , Muffler Delete, Hydra 2.7 EMS Launch Control Flat shift E85 , 550RC's, Fuel Lab fuel filter,
Canyonfive
National Champion BSP
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 1661



WWW
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2013, 06:49:47 PM »

Min 0% max 43% 48Hz p0i0d0

Logged

www.miataspeed.com My YouTube Channel
My BSP build thread
Ebay IC, Custome Koni 2812's by Guy Akney, FM Intake, FM DP, Hallman Pro Rx @ 10psi, GFB VTA BOV, Carbotech Brake Pads F/R, 15 X 10 Custom Wheels, Hooiser A7's,  Memory Fab/ lotus seats , Custom from sway bar , Muffler Delete, Hydra 2.7 EMS Launch Control Flat shift E85 , 550RC's, Fuel Lab fuel filter,
Canyonfive
National Champion BSP
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 1661



WWW
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2013, 07:16:02 PM »

called ingersoll rand supplier. This valve apparently starts to work at something like 20 psi and goes up to 120 psi. They werent helpful
Called their corporate office. Now we are in business so to speak. The black thing at the bottom with 4 dots regulates the size of the orifice. Which dictates response time. So I should be able to adjust it where the duty cycles become more sensitive. Still digesting this new info.

« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 07:34:41 PM by Canyonfive » Logged

www.miataspeed.com My YouTube Channel
My BSP build thread
Ebay IC, Custome Koni 2812's by Guy Akney, FM Intake, FM DP, Hallman Pro Rx @ 10psi, GFB VTA BOV, Carbotech Brake Pads F/R, 15 X 10 Custom Wheels, Hooiser A7's,  Memory Fab/ lotus seats , Custom from sway bar , Muffler Delete, Hydra 2.7 EMS Launch Control Flat shift E85 , 550RC's, Fuel Lab fuel filter,
Canyonfive
National Champion BSP
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 1661



WWW
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2013, 08:49:10 PM »

Sweet now I'm getting somewhere. He was right to suggest left. Haha. One full turn right almost cut off the signal (blew into where the boost source goes). One full turn left (counter clockwise) and I was able to blow significantly more air. 2 turns didnt yield anymore that i could tell. Now there should be more volume for the system to work with. Now it should work. I think that might also explain some of the other issues I was having as well.
Logged

www.miataspeed.com My YouTube Channel
My BSP build thread
Ebay IC, Custome Koni 2812's by Guy Akney, FM Intake, FM DP, Hallman Pro Rx @ 10psi, GFB VTA BOV, Carbotech Brake Pads F/R, 15 X 10 Custom Wheels, Hooiser A7's,  Memory Fab/ lotus seats , Custom from sway bar , Muffler Delete, Hydra 2.7 EMS Launch Control Flat shift E85 , 550RC's, Fuel Lab fuel filter,
Canyonfive
National Champion BSP
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 1661



WWW
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2013, 09:41:36 PM »

Not enough air through the solenoid meant that there was not enough air pushing the wastegate open to open it far enough. So even at 0% duty cycle sending 100% of the air to the wastgate the wastegate was not being opened 100%. And the result was a boost spike.

"So the next time we meet, I will not fail. I will go up to the six-fingered man and say, "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die." - The Princess Bride. lol thats how I feel.
Logged

www.miataspeed.com My YouTube Channel
My BSP build thread
Ebay IC, Custome Koni 2812's by Guy Akney, FM Intake, FM DP, Hallman Pro Rx @ 10psi, GFB VTA BOV, Carbotech Brake Pads F/R, 15 X 10 Custom Wheels, Hooiser A7's,  Memory Fab/ lotus seats , Custom from sway bar , Muffler Delete, Hydra 2.7 EMS Launch Control Flat shift E85 , 550RC's, Fuel Lab fuel filter,
Canyonfive
National Champion BSP
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 1661



WWW
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2013, 11:40:51 PM »

Bingo. Even at 100% Duty Cycle venting I get wastegate pressure. Success!!! Now its just a job of turning it back until i get the max boost i want.

Logged

www.miataspeed.com My YouTube Channel
My BSP build thread
Ebay IC, Custome Koni 2812's by Guy Akney, FM Intake, FM DP, Hallman Pro Rx @ 10psi, GFB VTA BOV, Carbotech Brake Pads F/R, 15 X 10 Custom Wheels, Hooiser A7's,  Memory Fab/ lotus seats , Custom from sway bar , Muffler Delete, Hydra 2.7 EMS Launch Control Flat shift E85 , 550RC's, Fuel Lab fuel filter,
bossman4
Keeps getting faster
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 585


Donut man


« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2013, 11:48:53 AM »

Talk about a one man band!  Go for it.   I had been using the EBC on 2.6 with some spiking and had not tried the 2.7 because I thought Jeremy was going to come up with something .....instead we have .....Canyonfire......
Logged

FM DP and Exhaust
FM no MAF intake and throttle body with GFB
3.63 gears installed by PuddyMod
2.7 Hydra ECU with Wideband (auto tuned) and electronic boost in progress
Deadbolt Turbo upgrade
550 cc injectors
8" x 2" x 28" Intercooler
New Boss Frog Double Max Roll Bar (Silver)
Boss Frog Arms
Modified  Windblocker
Oil Temp, Water Temp, Boost Prosport Gauges in Lo-Tek Pillar
Buck Diamond Grill
Clearwater Speakers
550 cc injectors
CG Seat Belt Lock
Thompson Automotive Oil Filter Relocation with filter wrap cooler
WR Engine Torque Dampener
Voodoo Knob
MiataRoadster Short Shifter
Grom audio with bluetooth
Canyonfive
National Champion BSP
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 1661



WWW
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2013, 04:29:26 AM »

Lol. Canyonfive. And for everyone out there turning it (the black adjustment at the bottom) 3/4 turns counter clockwise will give about 10 psi at 50% duty cycle paving plenty up and down on the duty cycle range for temp variations and the pid to do its work.
Logged

www.miataspeed.com My YouTube Channel
My BSP build thread
Ebay IC, Custome Koni 2812's by Guy Akney, FM Intake, FM DP, Hallman Pro Rx @ 10psi, GFB VTA BOV, Carbotech Brake Pads F/R, 15 X 10 Custom Wheels, Hooiser A7's,  Memory Fab/ lotus seats , Custom from sway bar , Muffler Delete, Hydra 2.7 EMS Launch Control Flat shift E85 , 550RC's, Fuel Lab fuel filter,
scotty b
They called you exotic. Which is people talk for awesome!
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 2445


Just another lost weekend, need another vacation.


« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2013, 06:00:52 AM »

Well done, sir, well done.  You should update your sig and maybe do a write-up for this mod (perhaps include all applicable settings to provide a strong starting point), as I don't think many have used an EBC under standalone ecu control.  Perhaps even FM might take interest and offer it as an option in the Big Enchilada...
Logged

'04 TiG, BEGI Re-flash; 450 cc injectors; FM IC; FM turbo back exhaust; BEGI intake; FM Oil cooler, Walbro 255HP, FM cross flow and Spal fans; GFB-BOV; MBC; Moroso air/oil separator; Nickel 6UL 15x8 with 225/45/15 BFG Rival S; V-Maxx Xxtreme; SSK; Wilwood 6 piston front, 4 piston rear brakes;  HDHCDD; Sparco Sprint V seats; Simpson 6-pt harness system; A-pillar dual-pod with boost and oil temp gauges, #3838

2006 C230 Sport, 2.5L V6, 6spd MT.  My favorite daily driver ever (so far).

Used to own:  '04 TiG, Big Enchilada, FM brake upgrade, Autometer boost gauge, Motegi Traklites, #2082.

My mind is a swirling miasma of scintillating thoughts and turgid ideas.
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!

Copyright 2007-2016, Eunos Communications LLC