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Author Topic: FM2 Conversion - Notes, best practices, and things to watch out for  (Read 14128 times)
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yenadar
2005 #36 Black Mica
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 1169


« on: April 07, 2014, 03:52:04 PM »

(I am sending this to FM as well, but putting it here in case it becomes useful to any other owners that get the kit before issues are resolved)

Here are the issues with the instructions or the conversion kit that I ran into. While I was expecting some random issues here or there, like manifold nut tightening difficulties, etc... I wasn't expecting this many issues with the kit itself, in terms of instructions missing or parts that simply didn't fit. I frankly expected better from FM, considering that this kit is one of their hallmark products. Some of the MSM specific stuff I can understand from a logistical perspective, given the ratio of naturally aspirated conversions vs MSM conversions, but not all of it.



There was no parts list available in the manual, and the part numbers that are referenced in the manual have an entirely different series (starting 2 digits) to what I actually got. The part number references are thus useless.

I received a lower radiator hose with my order, it was one of the items backordered that held up delivery even. No where in either MSM FM2 conversion manual is this radiator hose even referenced. A text search turns up only 1 occurance of "radiator" in either manual, at "drain the radiator" It is referenced in point #15 of Section 2, and point #9 in section 8, and all of section 12, for the "All Cars" FM2 installation manual. Note that in section 12 of the "all cars" manual, which has only 1 bullet point, it references "section 12 point 2", which doesn't exist. I assume it's referring to a different section which has since been re-numbered, but this point has not been updated.

The lower radiator hose at a minimum needs to be trimmed at the block end for the MSM. The MSM's block hard pipe angles upwards, where as non-MSMs angle downward. If you swap this pipe with one from an N/A block, you will have an easier time of it. Alternatively, you can but the MSM's hard pipe at the bend, so it is now pointing downwards, if a bit shorter. This is a permanent change however, and it would be easier to find an N/A pipe than it would be to find an MSM pipe. Even once the water hose is installed (which MUST be after the intercooler hose is secured to the turbo outlet), the radiator hose is under considerable tension at several points along it's length, as the angles that the hose is formed to are inappropriate for the MSM. Ideally, the silicone hose should make an abrupt 90 degree downturn, then curve across ~6 inches toward the front of the car, angle downward and outward slightly, then curve back up to get in line with the lower radiator attachment point. In a 2 dimensional world, the existing pipe is close to correct, but it needs more angle in the Z axis as well (which none currently exists), as it gets bent considerably around the PS/AC lines twisting downward then upward over the sway bar.


The instructions in all 3 manuals for mounting the assembly reference "The turbocharger, exhaust manifold, and turbine outlet casting have been pre-assembled at Flyin' Miata", however mine was not. I don't have a problem with this, as it probably would have delayed shipment far longer than it delayed me, but I still spent several hours looking between a couple of generalized pictures and the hardware laid out in front of me trying to figure out what goes where. The big stuff was easy, the small stuff like torque amounts, what needs washers or gaskets or RTV was not. I'm taking educated guesses for quite a few items. Future owners that get it all disassembled should have some sort of manual to reference for this.

The "gold bracket" referenced in all 3 manuals wasn't gold on mine, but the bracket for the wastegate actuator is. Not sure if this is normal, but if it is, you may want to be clearer about what is being referred to there.

The instructions in the two MSM manuals for the wire loom for the outboard water hose are really vague about where to actually route it. The wire loom should be mounted to the threaded hole in the bracket closest to the outlet for the turbo (hot intake side to intercooler), and should point about 45 degrees toward the block from 'forward'

The installer should have the banjo fittings already installed on the lower water line block end before the turbo gets mounted to the block. There isn't much room through the wheel well or from below for two hands, which are needed to get the banjo fitting in the hose and the hose anchored to the fitting.


The upper water line can't be secured with the supplied worm gear clamp, since it is tucked under the manifold against the block and there is no room to get a tool in there. I used a spare oem-style tension clamp that I had sitting around. Just make sure it's past the ridged tip of the OEM nipple and that the water line is fully on the nipple.

In the paragraph for when to connect the oil supply line, it references a 3" section of hose that needs to be put around the oil line and secured, to use as a shield against the bodywork. This hose needs to be sliced length-wise to fit around the oil line, as the inner diameter is far too small to fit around either end of the oil feed line's fittings. Fit around the line like a wire protector

If you have any studs come out of the head when removing the original manifold, or removed any studs to make fitting on the head easier, those studs need to be inserted back in before the FM manifold is tightened down, and need to be screwed in as the manifold is moved against the block, in progression. Most studs do not have clearance to be inserted with the FM manifold against the block if they have the nut still on the outter end. I highly recommend completely replacing any studs that come out of the block though. The difficulty of studs where the nut just backed out the stud instead of coming off the stud was noticeably harder all around. If the stud and nut are not free of each other, or the stud still in the block, it is noticeably more difficult to get everything torqued down. If you need to remove a stud to get the manifold into position, use 2 non-flanged nuts on the stud, tighten them against each other, then remove the stud with the inner nut. Properly angled wrenches just sqeezed together will break the nuts free once the stud is out.

A variety of strageties is needed to tighten the studs. I found that things were FAR easier if I used the "jack up the engine" method noted in the instructions for fitting the manifold, but then keeping it there until the studs are torqued. You gain angles and clearance on 3 nuts, and you can let the manifold hand at the end of the studs as you rotate them all inward in sequence. With the engine down, the manifold is pushed almost to the block from the frame rail.

If you are removing the MSM stock turbo assembly, replace the 2 14mm bolts that go into the engine mount plate before jacking up the engine. The motor mount plate gets out of alignment if you have them out when you jack up the engine

The top front stud doesn't have any clearance for a socket, you have to use a wrench, and the force needed means that it really needs to be a box end wrench. Box end wrenches typically don't have enough clearance due to the thickness of the end. Pick up a cheap 14mm wrench, they tend to be the thinnest, and you will still probably have to shave down the outter edge of the box to get it thinner. I still ended up having to remove the cam gears and then shield behind the gears, because it was in the way for proper angling of the wrench.


The lower front stud is difficult for similar reasons, only the blocking problem is the mount for the power steering pump. With the shaved down 14mm wrench, you can move it in 1/12th increments at a time though, enough to get it tightened. Use a 17mm+ wrench as a handle extension on the shaved 14mm to get the torque needed at the end.

The other three nuts on the top are easy, no complication, just use a box end wrench. The rear bottom two nuts are only really reachable with a socket and flex joint. HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend that you use a short 6-point 1/2" drive socket. 3/8" drive flex joints will shatter too easily, 12point sockets will round off off the nuts far easier, and long sockets keep running into the heater hose.

The center nut can be got at with the box 14mm wrench from the top. Again, clearance is a problem, but my cheapest 14mm wrench could just barely make it none of my more high quality wrenches had the clearance. You have to angle the wrench in from the side, sliding in forward of the bolt then rotating it around the end.


The manual states that you should bend the heater hose pipe, but not how far. If you don't bend it far enough (which i didn't), then once the FM manifold is riding on the studs, you can bend it further. Bend it TOO far though, and you won't be able to get the dipstick back into it's upper bolt point.

The EGR pipe might be able to fit with someone that can remove it, straighten the last bend a bit, then re-bend it slightly further down. Nothing I could do could get the EGR pipe to fit, namely because of the angle it was coming at the manifold from. I could get the tip of the pipe into the port on the manifold, but I couldn't stretch the pipe any farther to get the threaded fitting lined up to the manifold. I fabricated a block off plate and got a M22 1.50 thread pitch nut with some copper thread locker to just delete the EGR completely.

The oil drain pipe was almost 4 inches too long for mine. I'd have to crimp the hose in order for it to fit between the turbo and the pan. I trimmed the hose and it's in a very smooth curve from the turbo to the pan now. Recommend that this step be done while it's still lifted/tilted on the jack, BEFORE the engine is shifted back into the normal position

The turbo to intercooler hose references a 3" i/d intercooler end, although I found that it fits perfectly over a 2.5" intercooler inlet. Unsure if this is a typo or just a large fitment range possible. There is also no clamp supplied that can fit around this end at the intercooler, though this is probably entirely reasonable, assuming that you already have a clamp from your previous connection.

The air filter enclosure box, when secured at the upper bolt hole, sits more than an inch above the frame rail creating a gap around the entire bottom edge, and will damage the enclosure if the lower bolt is used to pull the enclosure down to the frame rail. You do have to remove the windshield washer mounting bracket which would otherwise slide under it, but it's ~1/8th inch thick, and does not come close to making up the difference. Once the lower edge is protected by the split silicone vacuum line, the gap can be filled with a length of foam, which is then held in place when the lower bolt is tightened to an appropriate length. Ideally a spacer should be used between the frame rail and the enclosure along the bolt, to ensure the bolt can be secured properly without damaging the enclosure


The air filter pipe itself is both too short and too straight. In order to secure each end of the MAF replacement pipe, it pulled the air filter hard against the side of the enclosure, and up at an angle that will require some cushioning against the hood. This is with minimum length inserted into the compressor inlet pipe of formed silicone, and minimum length inserted into the filter. The constant torque clamp on the filter end is pulled through the enclosure.

With the last two points in conjunction, I wonder if the enclosure was sized for a 1st gen Miata, which might be 'flatter' there. If there are 2 different enclosures, I got the wrong one.

There was no clamp in my kit that could have fit around the formed silicone compressor inlet pipe on the MAF replacement end was in use on the turbo outlet side of the intercooler pipe, none could even reach around if separated at the tension point. There should be a note that the clamps for the MAF on the FM intake kit are large enough, and I repurposed one of those to secure it.


The relay mounting bolt holes on the front of the air filter enclosure are too small for M6 bolts, and are approximately the right size if I was going to run a tap through to accept the threading of M6 bolts. I ended up dremeling out the holes larger to allow an M6 bolt to pass through, so I could secure the relays. No M5 or lower bolts were supplied, and I didn't have any on hand that might have been used otherwise.

There is no apparent option for plugging the recirc line if you chose to not use it. There is only a description of how to recirc, but not what to do if you are not recircing.

If you ARE recircing the BOV, there is no included recirc line, and the one for the FM complete intake kit is about 4 inches too short, as both the compressor inlet side and the BOV are moved farther apart than where they were. 3/4" hose is cheap and easy to obtain fortunately.

There is no mention anywhere in the manual of when you reconnect the oil dipstick. If someone forgets that, it could cause all sorts of problems.

The hard rubber 3/8" hose for the compressor inlet to oil separator pipe (that is integrated into the strut bar) isn't very appropriate. It is nearly impossible to get it to flex internally enough to get it on the strut bar. If it was silicone, it would flex enough without any problem, but hard rubber does not work very well. Silicone would also be far more flexible to bend down to the compressor inlet pipe. The supplied hose is under a lot of tension, and it's almost a struggle to get the strut bar bolted back in place with that hose on if I have to remove the strut bar later (as I did a few times due to timing belt adjustment issues not related to the FM2 kit). If the hose needs to be hard rubber, then a formed rubber one with a curve in it would be better, and perhaps a 1/2" ID, and let a clamp secure it from there.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 03:53:23 PM by yenadar » Logged

Keeping the MSM for the forseeable future.
Last mod: FM2 2560 conversion
Keith
FM tech weenie
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« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2014, 08:53:35 PM »

Thanks for those very detailed notes. I'm out of the office, but I've forwarded it to Brandon so he can take this as feedback on some new parts (new supplier for the air box baffle, for example) and problems with old references in the instructions (the turbo/manifold assembly).

All of our part numbers have always been in the form 12-34567. If you saw any other part numbers on the parts, they were from the supplier and not us. There are some MSM-specific things that cause problems, such as that unique water line on the block. Hopefully our tech line was able to deal with any confusion.
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Keith Tanner
Author of How To Build A High Performance Mazda Miata
yenadar
2005 #36 Black Mica
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 1169


« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2014, 09:13:14 PM »

Thanks for the reply Keith, I also sent Brandon the list earlier today.

The part number reference I was making is all FM's numbers. For example, in the intructions it would reference #36-50140, with nearly all (or all) references starting with that #36. In my kit, there wasn't a single package that was labeled with a #36-#####. I believe they all started with #12-#####, though I'd have to look at the bags again to verify that number. None of the 5 digit sequence after the dash lined up with any numbers in the instructions.

I had only called about the water line, which confirmed the forum advice I was getting. All other issues I faced were faced on a weekend. Maybe one day you all can employ a tech to get hammered by calls on the weekend for all the work that is only done on the weekend Smiley (I can understand the challenges with doing so though)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 09:15:27 PM by yenadar » Logged

Keeping the MSM for the forseeable future.
Last mod: FM2 2560 conversion
yenadar
2005 #36 Black Mica
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 1169


« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2014, 03:35:22 PM »

Correction: The instruction part numbers all begin with #36-, the bags I have all begin with #27-
Logged

Keeping the MSM for the forseeable future.
Last mod: FM2 2560 conversion
Keith
FM tech weenie
Moderator
Fifth Gear
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Posts: 2464


Racer, builder, author


WWW
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2014, 09:47:33 PM »

36- would be a nut, bolt and hose clamp part number. The bags are conglomerations of parts sorted by application - water drain, oil supply, intercooler hoses. 36-50140 would be inside one of the bags.
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Keith Tanner
Author of How To Build A High Performance Mazda Miata
yenadar
2005 #36 Black Mica
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 1169


« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2014, 09:50:27 PM »

Yeah, I'm referring to the individual little bags, not the bigger sets.

Brandon replied earlier today with some clarification questions, so he seems to be on top of it.
Logged

Keeping the MSM for the forseeable future.
Last mod: FM2 2560 conversion
Chrisbee
Fourth Gear
****
Posts: 254


« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2015, 10:54:59 AM »

Man I wish that I had seen this BEFORE I started this project!  help
Now that I'm 95% done with installing the mechanical parts, I find it. For the most part, I just pushed on instead of trying to find online help. But your examples do match with a lot of what I found. So as of yet, several of the issues you have listed are still there. I didn't even end up using the supplied (but not referenced) lower radiator hose!
Logged

2004 TI #3021. Purchased Oct. 2014 with 56k miles.

Engine: FM 2 kit with Hydra 2.7, 700cc injectors, and full 3" exhaust.
FM Crossflow radiator w/stage 2 airflow kit.
Suspension: Fox Racing with FM sway bars.
Wheels: 15x8 Enkei PF01s running 215/50 BFG G-force Sports.
Misc: Custom Speedhut boost gauge in place of stock oil pressure gauge. Temp gauge mod. ScanGaugeII. Blue instrument panel lights. Eclipse dash vents.

Definitely a work in progress!
barmato
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 743


« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2015, 12:33:03 PM »

Man I wish that I had seen this BEFORE I started this project!  help
Now that I'm 95% done with installing the mechanical parts, I find it. For the most part, I just pushed on instead of trying to find online help. But your examples do match with a lot of what I found. So as of yet, several of the issues you have listed are still there. I didn't even end up using the supplied (but not referenced) lower radiator hose!
Does it appear at least some of the issues have been corrected?   I would hate to think that all of this good information was ignored.
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Maduh
M-S.com Guinea pig.
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« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2015, 04:31:27 PM »

Yenadar, any reason as to why you have the valve cover off and timing belt and cam gears off? Doing the timing belt the same time as the turbo swap maybe? Or was that part of the install? Seems sort of unnecessary to me.
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RIP #361 05' Black Mica Mazdaspeed mx-5, swap in progress to 1999 Miata Base. Follow my build thread here: http://tinyurl.com/pwtx3f9
barmato
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 743


« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2015, 05:38:51 PM »

He said it was the only way he could tighten one of the manifold nuts.
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Maduh
M-S.com Guinea pig.
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Posts: 3991


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« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2015, 06:37:31 PM »

He said it was the only way he could tighten one of the manifold nuts.

I don't have the FM instructions nor do I have experience with their kit so I'm sort of talking out of my butt here. But why not just install the manifold first then install the turbo? Looking at the photos it doesn't really look like those bolts are all the hard to get too if you have the right tools. I can't for the life of my reckon as to how the cam gears and VC would remotely get in the way of the manifold.

My own experience with removing our stock manifold and turbo and installing it is that the manifold comes off first, then the turbo, when you reinstall, you get the turbo hooked up and then reinstall the manifold. Just because the way our stock turbo almost tucks in under the stock manifold. There's definitely no way you can install and remove the manifold/turbo as one piece already bolted together. It just makes things way harder. The FM manifold places the turbo much higher up, I would think that would definitely provide better access.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 06:39:28 PM by Maduh » Logged

RIP #361 05' Black Mica Mazdaspeed mx-5, swap in progress to 1999 Miata Base. Follow my build thread here: http://tinyurl.com/pwtx3f9
Chrisbee
Fourth Gear
****
Posts: 254


« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2015, 02:39:28 AM »

Man I wish that I had seen this BEFORE I started this project!  help
Now that I'm 95% done with installing the mechanical parts, I find it. For the most part, I just pushed on instead of trying to find online help. But your examples do match with a lot of what I found. So as of yet, several of the issues you have listed are still there. I didn't even end up using the supplied (but not referenced) lower radiator hose!
Does it appear at least some of the issues have been corrected?   I would hate to think that all of this good information was ignored.
Some yes. Alot of it looks like the instructions manual just needs updated. If you opt to put the turbo/manifold/outlet together yourself, there still is no directions for that. one of the things that I found myself was that the intercooler bracket that they supplied seems to be a retrofit for all (90-05) Miatas, as it puts the intercooler towards the driver's side. After e-mailing FM, they says it's because of the charcoal canister being in the way. So you supposedly can't have the intercooler centered. I ended up drilling my own holes in the braket an additional 1 1/4" over to center it.
Logged

2004 TI #3021. Purchased Oct. 2014 with 56k miles.

Engine: FM 2 kit with Hydra 2.7, 700cc injectors, and full 3" exhaust.
FM Crossflow radiator w/stage 2 airflow kit.
Suspension: Fox Racing with FM sway bars.
Wheels: 15x8 Enkei PF01s running 215/50 BFG G-force Sports.
Misc: Custom Speedhut boost gauge in place of stock oil pressure gauge. Temp gauge mod. ScanGaugeII. Blue instrument panel lights. Eclipse dash vents.

Definitely a work in progress!
redmist
First Gear
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Posts: 9


« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2016, 05:54:58 PM »

I think FM has corrected many of these issues. I am just doing the FMII install on my 2004 MSM and things are proceeding generally in accordance with the instructions, no difficulties except:

Some "new" issues.

Instructions say to reuse the old exhaust manifold gasket, I did but later found a new one included in the intercooler box.

Installation of the lower silicone radiator hose and turbo outlet hose are suboptimal unless you move power steering hoses around, remove brackets and trim the turbo outlet hose at the turbo. I recommend installing the radiator hose before the turbo outlet hose. Having the hoses touching metal or other hoses is not acceptable IMO. This needs to be re-engineered.

Installation of the intercooler requires modifying the horn bracket, moving it to the right. The a/c lines need the brackets modified and the lines need to be moved to the drivers side. Not a big deal but the degree of modification/fabrication necessary is understated in the instructions.

Far as I've gotten so far. I'll add to this as I progress.
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barmato
Fifth Gear
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Posts: 743


Re:
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2016, 11:14:17 PM »

I too had difficulty with the radiator hose and intercooler hose. The trouble with the intercooler hose was probably largely due to the fact i have an ebay intercooler which apparently is mounted farther forward than the FM intercooler so the silicone hose simply didnt reach.  I dont know how thats possible since it aligned with the stock intercooler piping when i originally installed it but thats the only conclusion we (myself and FM tech support) could come up with. I ended up cutting the intercooler hose in half and adding a piece of aluminum pipe to extend it about 2 inches.

For the radiator hose the bends are just completely wrong. I actually bought a new water pump inlet from an N/A motor as one member suggested but that didnt fit because the hard pipe that mates to it with an o-ring was either too long or too short (cant remember).  I ended up using the original water inlet and had to trim both ends to make it work. Its physically in contact with the intercooler pipe which i dont like but i couldn't figure out any other way.  And I don't have AC in my car so theoretically I have more space down there than some.

Another annoying issue I had was inlet in the intake tube for the recirculating valve points directly towards the power steering line/bracket. I had to bend the line/bracket as much as i could and then wrap the recirculating valve hose with another slit hose to protect it from rubbing.

All in all I was impressed with the quality of the parts but not as impressed with the fit.   Performance is good but still having an issue that may or may not be related to the install.
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Chrisbee
Fourth Gear
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Posts: 254


« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2016, 01:53:03 AM »

The lower radiator hose fitment is a known issue, and quite frankly I'm surprised that FM hasn't sourced a different option yet!
I ended up using my original lower rad hose because I thought it actually fit better.
Logged

2004 TI #3021. Purchased Oct. 2014 with 56k miles.

Engine: FM 2 kit with Hydra 2.7, 700cc injectors, and full 3" exhaust.
FM Crossflow radiator w/stage 2 airflow kit.
Suspension: Fox Racing with FM sway bars.
Wheels: 15x8 Enkei PF01s running 215/50 BFG G-force Sports.
Misc: Custom Speedhut boost gauge in place of stock oil pressure gauge. Temp gauge mod. ScanGaugeII. Blue instrument panel lights. Eclipse dash vents.

Definitely a work in progress!
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