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Author Topic: Cold Start Numbers  (Read 8586 times)
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MSpeedM
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Posts: 269


« on: March 05, 2015, 04:22:42 PM »

So I've been working on my cold start settings and was wondering what AFR everyone is seeing during warm up? Mine seems to float anywhere around 12.9 AFR until autotune kicks in at my 86* coolant temp setting. At that point it starts to correct fuel up to 14.7 which is what's set on my AFR target table.

Also, only on cold start, the car starts, revs up to about 2k rpm for a sec, drops way down in rpm as well as vacuum, sometimes it stays on but most times it shuts off. 2nd try, perfect. If the car actually fights to stay on during the first try it takes several seconds for vacuum to settle down to 19in. Giving it some gas when that happens usually helps it settle. Not sure if anyone else is experiencing anything similar. 
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2005 Black Mica, Built Motor w/ Forged Internals (Supertech Pistons, Wiseco XX Rings, Manley Rods), FMII w/ gt2560, FM Full 3" DP/Exhaust, Hydra 2.7, Fab9 FMIC, DW 700cc inj, FM 36-2 Timing Wheel, BE Billet Oil Pump, 949 6UL 15x8 on Toyo R888, FM Crossflow Rad, Comp Clutch Stage 2 & LW Flywheel, HKS SSQBOV, Moroso Air/Oil Separator, FM Check Valve, Tein Street Flex, RB Front sway bar w/ RB end links, Hallman Pro RX MBC

Coming Soon: OIL COOLING!  Eventually the FM Happy Meal will be needed as well.
rotorglow
Toyotae non carborundum.
Fifth Gear
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Posts: 2699


« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2015, 05:01:00 PM »

Since it's in open-loop during warm up AFRs in the 12s or 13s sound right to me, and are roughly what I see.

I had that stalling problem very occasionally in the past. I'd look at a couple of things:

You may need some more post-start fuel trim, which is a percentage of base fuel, and varies with temp.  (Exact numbers for that table aren't really shareable, since everyone's base fuel table is likely to be different.)

Your ISC error ignition trim might be out of whack.  When the idle misses the target idle speed low (near stalling), it needs to advance ignition timing to bring the idle back up.  If the it's not advancing enough, it might not be able to catch an idle sag.  Take a look at Tuning Maps -> Idle Speed Control -> ISC Error Ignition Trim.  My numbers are 14   12   10   8   6   4   2   0   -2   -4   -6   -8   -10   -12   -14   -16

Another thing to check is Cranking ISC Valve Duty cycle.  You may need it to be open more during cranking and immediately after starting.  This will mean less vacuum (meaning closer to ambient, meaning higher than "normal" vacuum) during start and warm up, so getting it to "settle" at 19-20 inHg immediately probably *isn't* what you want.

Maybe try a higher base idle target when it's cold?

Just off the top of my head......
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2004 VR Sport: FM Big Enchilada w/ Hydra 2.7 + DeatschWerks 700cc injectors + FM crossflow rad + 3.63 rear gears + ES poly diff bushings + comp motor mounts--Koni Sports + Ground Control 550/375 + Racing Beat 1.125" bar + blocks & bolts--Wilwood/AX6 brakes--15x8 6ULs + RE-71Rs--Speedhut + Clearwaters + Auxmod + other misc electrics
MSpeedM
Fourth Gear
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Posts: 269


« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2015, 05:24:03 PM »

Ok so my AFR's aren't anything out of the ordinary. I park reverse and my space has a parking stop that always turns black right where my exhaust pipe is. I watch it turn black only during warmup so I thought that couldn't be good. I figure the sensors are not too happy about it, and I wouldn't be too happy if the Hydras WB sensor went bad because of it!

Checked my ISC Error Ignition Trim and it's identical to yours. I'm going to have to play with the ISC Valve Duty cycle and idle target maps.
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2005 Black Mica, Built Motor w/ Forged Internals (Supertech Pistons, Wiseco XX Rings, Manley Rods), FMII w/ gt2560, FM Full 3" DP/Exhaust, Hydra 2.7, Fab9 FMIC, DW 700cc inj, FM 36-2 Timing Wheel, BE Billet Oil Pump, 949 6UL 15x8 on Toyo R888, FM Crossflow Rad, Comp Clutch Stage 2 & LW Flywheel, HKS SSQBOV, Moroso Air/Oil Separator, FM Check Valve, Tein Street Flex, RB Front sway bar w/ RB end links, Hallman Pro RX MBC

Coming Soon: OIL COOLING!  Eventually the FM Happy Meal will be needed as well.
rotorglow
Toyotae non carborundum.
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 2699


« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2015, 06:11:16 PM »

The fact that you have sooty spots is a little surprising to me.  I've never had those; just the normal condensation dripping out.  You're sure your wideband is calibrated properly?  Does the narrowband roughly agree (dither between 1v and 0v at stoich and in closed-loop) with the wideband?  I suppose you could have a little too much fuel on the cold-end of the coolant temp trim table, such that it's super rich before going into closed-loop......

The WB sensors seem to be lasting longer than originally expected; mine is 5+ years old.

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2004 VR Sport: FM Big Enchilada w/ Hydra 2.7 + DeatschWerks 700cc injectors + FM crossflow rad + 3.63 rear gears + ES poly diff bushings + comp motor mounts--Koni Sports + Ground Control 550/375 + Racing Beat 1.125" bar + blocks & bolts--Wilwood/AX6 brakes--15x8 6ULs + RE-71Rs--Speedhut + Clearwaters + Auxmod + other misc electrics
MSpeedM
Fourth Gear
****
Posts: 269


« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2015, 06:44:13 PM »

I questioned my WB but it's spot on. 14.7 it's dithering between 0-1v. I'll be doing a suspension makeover in the next couple of weeks so I'll recalibrate the WB while it's up on the lift.

The soot is what I'm not too happy about. I figured that was happening because of how rich the car was while warming up. And the strong smell of fuel makes me think I have a bunch of unburnt fuel coming through the exhaust. 
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2005 Black Mica, Built Motor w/ Forged Internals (Supertech Pistons, Wiseco XX Rings, Manley Rods), FMII w/ gt2560, FM Full 3" DP/Exhaust, Hydra 2.7, Fab9 FMIC, DW 700cc inj, FM 36-2 Timing Wheel, BE Billet Oil Pump, 949 6UL 15x8 on Toyo R888, FM Crossflow Rad, Comp Clutch Stage 2 & LW Flywheel, HKS SSQBOV, Moroso Air/Oil Separator, FM Check Valve, Tein Street Flex, RB Front sway bar w/ RB end links, Hallman Pro RX MBC

Coming Soon: OIL COOLING!  Eventually the FM Happy Meal will be needed as well.
Tickittyboo
Fourth Gear
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Posts: 454



« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2015, 07:04:58 PM »

Your first post describes exactly what mine does. Looking forward to hearing if you get it fixed.

2004 VR MSM with Flyin' Miata Big Enchilada, V-Maxx Extreme, Trm C3M 15x9 with 225 45 15 BFG Rivals, and Boss Frog Double Hoop Roll Bar

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2004 Velocity Red MSM with Flyin' Miata's Big Enchilada tuned by Ken Hill, V-Maxx Extreme adjustable coilovers, FM front sway bar, 949 Racing End Links, Boss Frog Double Hoop Roll bar, Tr Motorsports c3m 15x9 wheels with 225 45 15 Hankook Rs3's and carbotech ax6 brake pads all around.
MSpeedM
Fourth Gear
****
Posts: 269


« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2015, 01:06:41 PM »

So I got my cold start working pretty decent. But guess now what...the car struggles to start when warm! I'm actually stranded at a tire shop right now because I stopped the car to go inside, came back out and the car just cranks...won't start. Same thing happened to me last time I drove the car but eventually started. This time, nothing! Didn't bring my laptop either so I can't adjust anything. Now just waiting for the car to cool down and hopefully it starts  Sad
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2005 Black Mica, Built Motor w/ Forged Internals (Supertech Pistons, Wiseco XX Rings, Manley Rods), FMII w/ gt2560, FM Full 3" DP/Exhaust, Hydra 2.7, Fab9 FMIC, DW 700cc inj, FM 36-2 Timing Wheel, BE Billet Oil Pump, 949 6UL 15x8 on Toyo R888, FM Crossflow Rad, Comp Clutch Stage 2 & LW Flywheel, HKS SSQBOV, Moroso Air/Oil Separator, FM Check Valve, Tein Street Flex, RB Front sway bar w/ RB end links, Hallman Pro RX MBC

Coming Soon: OIL COOLING!  Eventually the FM Happy Meal will be needed as well.
SilverMiataRacer
Global Moderator
Fifth Gear
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Posts: 25931



WWW
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2015, 01:28:15 PM »

Flooded??  Pedal held to the floor and crank it for 10 seconds or so to clear it out??
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Larry

4 Miatas but who's counting!!   Cool

White Knight    1991 Crystal White   #99 CSP
Silver Bullet     1992 Silverstone     #17 SM2  FM I+ Turbo  (Gone but not forgotten)
Honey B          1992 Sunburst Yellow #99 SM2 J.R. M45
Whooosh         2004 Titanium MazdaSpeed MX5  #403 of 4000
Subie              2006 Steel Gray WRX STi Cobb Stage 2 (Gone but not forgotten)
No name yet    2008 Velocity Yellow Tintcoat Z06 Corvette
No Name yet    2014 Ashen Grey Metallic Camaro 2SS 1LE

“There are only three sports: mountain climbing, bull fighting, and motor racing. All the rest are merely games.”
– Ernest Hemingway
MSpeedM
Fourth Gear
****
Posts: 269


« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2015, 02:33:03 PM »

No go. The car is still not fully cooled down but it's never been this bad. Last time this happened by now it would've already started up. I didn't want to have to get a tow truck.
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2005 Black Mica, Built Motor w/ Forged Internals (Supertech Pistons, Wiseco XX Rings, Manley Rods), FMII w/ gt2560, FM Full 3" DP/Exhaust, Hydra 2.7, Fab9 FMIC, DW 700cc inj, FM 36-2 Timing Wheel, BE Billet Oil Pump, 949 6UL 15x8 on Toyo R888, FM Crossflow Rad, Comp Clutch Stage 2 & LW Flywheel, HKS SSQBOV, Moroso Air/Oil Separator, FM Check Valve, Tein Street Flex, RB Front sway bar w/ RB end links, Hallman Pro RX MBC

Coming Soon: OIL COOLING!  Eventually the FM Happy Meal will be needed as well.
MSpeedM
Fourth Gear
****
Posts: 269


« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2015, 03:27:19 PM »

Got it jump started and it started right up. Time to investigate battery or alternator. The timing of one of these failing threw me off here...
Logged

2005 Black Mica, Built Motor w/ Forged Internals (Supertech Pistons, Wiseco XX Rings, Manley Rods), FMII w/ gt2560, FM Full 3" DP/Exhaust, Hydra 2.7, Fab9 FMIC, DW 700cc inj, FM 36-2 Timing Wheel, BE Billet Oil Pump, 949 6UL 15x8 on Toyo R888, FM Crossflow Rad, Comp Clutch Stage 2 & LW Flywheel, HKS SSQBOV, Moroso Air/Oil Separator, FM Check Valve, Tein Street Flex, RB Front sway bar w/ RB end links, Hallman Pro RX MBC

Coming Soon: OIL COOLING!  Eventually the FM Happy Meal will be needed as well.
SilverMiataRacer
Global Moderator
Fifth Gear
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Posts: 25931



WWW
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2015, 04:09:47 PM »

Neither may be bad.  You say you can hot start so you cranked and cranked it until the battery voltage was too low for the Hydra to be happy.  Give the battery a good 24-48 hour 1 AMP charge and then test it and check the alternator.  If you don't slow charge the battery fully anything you do will give you bad data and cause you to end up buying a battery or an alternator you do not need.

Work on your start settings and also your procedure too.

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Larry

4 Miatas but who's counting!!   Cool

White Knight    1991 Crystal White   #99 CSP
Silver Bullet     1992 Silverstone     #17 SM2  FM I+ Turbo  (Gone but not forgotten)
Honey B          1992 Sunburst Yellow #99 SM2 J.R. M45
Whooosh         2004 Titanium MazdaSpeed MX5  #403 of 4000
Subie              2006 Steel Gray WRX STi Cobb Stage 2 (Gone but not forgotten)
No name yet    2008 Velocity Yellow Tintcoat Z06 Corvette
No Name yet    2014 Ashen Grey Metallic Camaro 2SS 1LE

“There are only three sports: mountain climbing, bull fighting, and motor racing. All the rest are merely games.”
– Ernest Hemingway
MSpeedM
Fourth Gear
****
Posts: 269


« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2015, 04:21:21 PM »

Neither may be bad.  You say you can hot start so you cranked and cranked it until the battery voltage was too low for the Hydra to be happy.  Give the battery a good 24-48 hour 1 AMP charge and then test it and check the alternator.  If you don't slow charge the battery fully anything you do will give you bad data and cause you to end up buying a battery or an alternator you do not need.

Work on your start settings and also your procedure too.



  Will do. I'll need to get myself a new charger. Had a cheap one that crapped out on me a few months ago. I did notice when I started the car up now with the charger hooked up cranking was a lot quicker than usual. I'm guessing the Hydra hasn't been happy with voltage while cranking for a while now.   
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2005 Black Mica, Built Motor w/ Forged Internals (Supertech Pistons, Wiseco XX Rings, Manley Rods), FMII w/ gt2560, FM Full 3" DP/Exhaust, Hydra 2.7, Fab9 FMIC, DW 700cc inj, FM 36-2 Timing Wheel, BE Billet Oil Pump, 949 6UL 15x8 on Toyo R888, FM Crossflow Rad, Comp Clutch Stage 2 & LW Flywheel, HKS SSQBOV, Moroso Air/Oil Separator, FM Check Valve, Tein Street Flex, RB Front sway bar w/ RB end links, Hallman Pro RX MBC

Coming Soon: OIL COOLING!  Eventually the FM Happy Meal will be needed as well.
SilverMiataRacer
Global Moderator
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 25931



WWW
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2015, 04:30:13 PM »

Remember, long time/low amperage equals happy battery
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Larry

4 Miatas but who's counting!!   Cool

White Knight    1991 Crystal White   #99 CSP
Silver Bullet     1992 Silverstone     #17 SM2  FM I+ Turbo  (Gone but not forgotten)
Honey B          1992 Sunburst Yellow #99 SM2 J.R. M45
Whooosh         2004 Titanium MazdaSpeed MX5  #403 of 4000
Subie              2006 Steel Gray WRX STi Cobb Stage 2 (Gone but not forgotten)
No name yet    2008 Velocity Yellow Tintcoat Z06 Corvette
No Name yet    2014 Ashen Grey Metallic Camaro 2SS 1LE

“There are only three sports: mountain climbing, bull fighting, and motor racing. All the rest are merely games.”
– Ernest Hemingway
Tickittyboo
Fourth Gear
****
Posts: 454



« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2015, 05:13:27 PM »

Sooo now that you're up and running again would you mind sharing what you did to clean up you're cold start issues? My issues are exactly the same as yours and I don't have a clue what to do. Thanks for any help and glad to hear she didn't leave you stranded too long.

2004 VR MSM with Flyin' Miata Big Enchilada, V-Maxx Extreme, Trm C3M 15x9 with 225 45 15 BFG Rivals, and Boss Frog Double Hoop Roll Bar

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2004 Velocity Red MSM with Flyin' Miata's Big Enchilada tuned by Ken Hill, V-Maxx Extreme adjustable coilovers, FM front sway bar, 949 Racing End Links, Boss Frog Double Hoop Roll bar, Tr Motorsports c3m 15x9 wheels with 225 45 15 Hankook Rs3's and carbotech ax6 brake pads all around.
MSpeedM
Fourth Gear
****
Posts: 269


« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2015, 01:40:21 AM »

Sooo now that you're up and running again would you mind sharing what you did to clean up you're cold start issues? My issues are exactly the same as yours and I don't have a clue what to do. Thanks for any help and glad to hear she didn't leave you stranded too long.

2004 VR MSM with Flyin' Miata Big Enchilada, V-Maxx Extreme, Trm C3M 15x9 with 225 45 15 BFG Rivals, and Boss Frog Double Hoop Roll Bar



 Sorry about that! I played around with a few things, hope this helps your issue:

 Tuning Maps>Starting>Post-start Fuel Trim - 55  46.5  39.5  33  30  27  23  18  14.5  13  12  11  11  11  11  11

 Tuning Maps>Starting>Post-start Fuel Trim Decay - 100  58.04  32.16  18.43  12.16  6.67  3.53  1.96  0  0  0  0...

 Tuning Maps>Starting>Cranking Fuel Trim - 224  184  148  118  92  72  56  46  38  34  30  24  24...

 Tuning Maps>Starting>Cranking Fuel Trim Decay - 100  100  100  100  98.04  96.08  94.12  92.16  90.20  88.24  86.27  84.31  82.35  80.39  78.43  76.47

 Tuning Maps>Starting>Start Primer Grid - 22.93760  18.02240  13.76256  10.15808  7.53664  5.89824  3.93216  2.62144  1.96608  1.96608  1.63840  1.31072 ...

 Tuning Maps>Base Idle Speed Target - 1264  1184  1120  1120  1104  1048  1048  1000  952  896  896  896  896  912  1008  1136

Not so sure if the base idle speed target helped but my car seems to behave better with those idle speeds.

Hopefully this helps you out! Report back when you give it a try. 
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2005 Black Mica, Built Motor w/ Forged Internals (Supertech Pistons, Wiseco XX Rings, Manley Rods), FMII w/ gt2560, FM Full 3" DP/Exhaust, Hydra 2.7, Fab9 FMIC, DW 700cc inj, FM 36-2 Timing Wheel, BE Billet Oil Pump, 949 6UL 15x8 on Toyo R888, FM Crossflow Rad, Comp Clutch Stage 2 & LW Flywheel, HKS SSQBOV, Moroso Air/Oil Separator, FM Check Valve, Tein Street Flex, RB Front sway bar w/ RB end links, Hallman Pro RX MBC

Coming Soon: OIL COOLING!  Eventually the FM Happy Meal will be needed as well.
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