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Author Topic: Hydra restart after a long drive?  (Read 9857 times)
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thomsoad
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 1653



« on: February 08, 2016, 09:07:34 PM »

This has happened to me a few times now and only after a long continuous drive:
I find after i do about 150 miles of continuous driving (no breaks) when I turn the car off for a bit (say half an hour) the car wont even turn over til about 4-5 tries. All the lights and auxillary stuff light up just fine; but when i turn the ignition...nothing. All the stuff are stil on but its like im not even turning the ignition switch. This happened to me once on my 2 week PCH trip and just happened twice on my trip to Cali and back. Once again it only happens after i do about 2 hours of solid driving and after 4 or 5 attempts the car turns over no problem...anyone else experience this?
Now its possible that the power would also not come on but since i have done the alternator conversion I honestly dont know if power would be affected by this.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 09:35:13 PM by thomsoad » Logged

Previous MSM: 2004 TI; FM LE; Falken FK452s

Current MSM: GT Mica;
SUSPENSION/TRANSMISSION: 215/45/17 Pilot Super Sports; Tein Street Advance Coilovers; FM Happy Meal Level 1 System; GarageStar door bushings; MR short shifter
ENGINE: FM Wiseco Pistons; Carrillo A rods; ARP studs; ATI Super Damper; Mazdaspeed competition motor mounts; oversized intake valves, oversized Inconel exhaust valves, ACL Race bearings , FM valve springs; 700CC Deatschwerks injectors:  NGK plugs; Magnecor 8.5s .
PERFORMANCE UPGRADES: Upgraded Blouche turbo, FM Intake, FM full Exhaust, FM Intercooler
ECU: Hydra 2.7
MISCELLANEOUS:  Autometer Boost Gauge; Audiovox CCS-100 cruise control, Motorcraft transmission fluid, Mobil 1 differential fluid, Castrol Platinum Synthetic Motor oil.

DYNOPACK RESULTS:
WHP: 256 @ 6141 rpm
TORQUE (lb/ft): 267.0 @ 4105 rpm
BOOST (PSI): 15.46 @ 4120 rpm
                     14.00 @ 3750 rpm

My MSM: Street...with attitude. Smiley
rotorglow
Toyotae non carborundum.
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 2699


« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2016, 09:35:56 PM »

Couple of thoughts:

If it has power, the Hydra lights the CEL when you turn the key to On. 

Have you changed your oil lately?  I once knocked the connector to the starter motor a little loose when I was changing the oil, and would have to reach in and jiggle it for the car to crank over.  It would be fine until I drove a little and it shook loose again.  Maybe you have something intermittent there.
Logged

2004 VR Sport: FM Big Enchilada w/ Hydra 2.7 + DeatschWerks 700cc injectors + FM crossflow rad + 3.63 rear gears + ES poly diff bushings + comp motor mounts--Koni Sports + Ground Control 550/375 + Racing Beat 1.125" bar + blocks & bolts--Wilwood/AX6 brakes--15x8 6ULs + RE-71Rs--Speedhut + Clearwaters + Auxmod + other misc electrics
rstange1
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 637



« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2016, 09:39:19 PM »

Never experienced anything like that. Not sure the Hydra could be the culprit in a case like this. If you're turning the key to the start position and the starter does nothing, I'd start looking for an electrical connection issue at the ignition switch, the starter or whatever connects the two. Sorry, I don't know enough about the starting system to be more help.
Logged

'05 Ti MSM with: Flyin' Miata Downpipe, Midpipe, Exhaust | Hydra 2.7 ECU w/KO Racing tune | Deatschwerks 700cc Injectors | Turbosmart Manual Boost Controller | BEGi Cool Air Intake, Intercooler, Throttle Inlet | Forge Bypass Valve | FCM Elite Coilovers | Racing Beat 1.125" Tubular Front Sway Bar | Whiteline Endlinks | Enkei 15x8 PF01s | Hankook 225/45 R-S3s | Hard Dog HCHTDD Roll Bar | MiataRoadster Short Shift Kit | Audiovox Cruise Control | Sylfex AuxMod | VDO Boost Gauge | ScanGauge II | BlendMount | Cocomats
thomsoad
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 1653



« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2016, 09:41:51 PM »

Couple of thoughts:

If it has power, the Hydra lights the CEL when you turn the key to On.  

Have you changed your oil lately?  I once knocked the connector to the starter motor a little loose when I was changing the oil, and would have to reach in and jiggle it for the car to crank over.  It would be fine until I drove a little and it shook loose again.  Maybe you have something intermittent there.

Sorry Roto i modified my post midway thru your reply.
I dont know if power would be affected by this since ive done the alternator conversion.
And yes Ive changed my oil recently but my PCH trip was back in July and i have had no problem til last week...which were the only times ive done 2+ hours of continuous driving. And my car is a DD.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 09:44:13 PM by thomsoad » Logged

Previous MSM: 2004 TI; FM LE; Falken FK452s

Current MSM: GT Mica;
SUSPENSION/TRANSMISSION: 215/45/17 Pilot Super Sports; Tein Street Advance Coilovers; FM Happy Meal Level 1 System; GarageStar door bushings; MR short shifter
ENGINE: FM Wiseco Pistons; Carrillo A rods; ARP studs; ATI Super Damper; Mazdaspeed competition motor mounts; oversized intake valves, oversized Inconel exhaust valves, ACL Race bearings , FM valve springs; 700CC Deatschwerks injectors:  NGK plugs; Magnecor 8.5s .
PERFORMANCE UPGRADES: Upgraded Blouche turbo, FM Intake, FM full Exhaust, FM Intercooler
ECU: Hydra 2.7
MISCELLANEOUS:  Autometer Boost Gauge; Audiovox CCS-100 cruise control, Motorcraft transmission fluid, Mobil 1 differential fluid, Castrol Platinum Synthetic Motor oil.

DYNOPACK RESULTS:
WHP: 256 @ 6141 rpm
TORQUE (lb/ft): 267.0 @ 4105 rpm
BOOST (PSI): 15.46 @ 4120 rpm
                     14.00 @ 3750 rpm

My MSM: Street...with attitude. Smiley
rotorglow
Toyotae non carborundum.
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 2699


« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2016, 10:00:02 PM »

The alternator conversion affects charging.  I can't see how it would stop the Hydra from lighting the CEL as a (welcome) indication that it has power.  

I'm with rstange.  My money is on a connection problem at (or related to) the starter.  Things can work loose in funny ways.
Logged

2004 VR Sport: FM Big Enchilada w/ Hydra 2.7 + DeatschWerks 700cc injectors + FM crossflow rad + 3.63 rear gears + ES poly diff bushings + comp motor mounts--Koni Sports + Ground Control 550/375 + Racing Beat 1.125" bar + blocks & bolts--Wilwood/AX6 brakes--15x8 6ULs + RE-71Rs--Speedhut + Clearwaters + Auxmod + other misc electrics
thomsoad
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 1653



« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2016, 10:25:30 PM »

The alternator conversion affects charging.  I can't see how it would stop the Hydra from lighting the CEL as a (welcome) indication that it has power.  

I'm with rstange.  My money is on a connection problem at (or related to) the starter.  Things can work loose in funny ways.

Ok. Since you two have never experienced this i will start checking connections. Thanx for the feedback. Smiley
Logged

Previous MSM: 2004 TI; FM LE; Falken FK452s

Current MSM: GT Mica;
SUSPENSION/TRANSMISSION: 215/45/17 Pilot Super Sports; Tein Street Advance Coilovers; FM Happy Meal Level 1 System; GarageStar door bushings; MR short shifter
ENGINE: FM Wiseco Pistons; Carrillo A rods; ARP studs; ATI Super Damper; Mazdaspeed competition motor mounts; oversized intake valves, oversized Inconel exhaust valves, ACL Race bearings , FM valve springs; 700CC Deatschwerks injectors:  NGK plugs; Magnecor 8.5s .
PERFORMANCE UPGRADES: Upgraded Blouche turbo, FM Intake, FM full Exhaust, FM Intercooler
ECU: Hydra 2.7
MISCELLANEOUS:  Autometer Boost Gauge; Audiovox CCS-100 cruise control, Motorcraft transmission fluid, Mobil 1 differential fluid, Castrol Platinum Synthetic Motor oil.

DYNOPACK RESULTS:
WHP: 256 @ 6141 rpm
TORQUE (lb/ft): 267.0 @ 4105 rpm
BOOST (PSI): 15.46 @ 4120 rpm
                     14.00 @ 3750 rpm

My MSM: Street...with attitude. Smiley
rstange1
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 637



« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2016, 02:36:58 AM »

The intermittent nature of the problem will make troubleshooting a bit tricky.

Paraphrasing from the shop manual, following are the diagnostic steps for a "will not crank" condition. I'm surprised the last thing they suggest is 'replace PCM.' Hopefully you have something a little more civilized like a bad starter interlock switch connection on the clutch pedal. Best of luck!

Possible Cause:
  • Open starter circuit between ignition switch and starter
  • Bad starter interlock switch
  • Starter malfunction
  • Seized/hydrolocked engine (thankfully, we know that's not your root cause)

Diagnostic Procedure:
1. Verify following:
  • Battery connection
  • Clutch fully depressed
  • Fuses
If OK, go to next step; if not, fix & repeat.

2. Is click sound heard from starter when ignition switch turned to START?
If yes, go to next step; if no, go to step 4.

3. Inspect starting system.
If OK, check for hydrolocked engine; if no, service as required.

4. Do any other electrical accessories work?
If yes, go to next step; if no, inspect charging system.

5. Bla, bla, automatic transmission stuff...

6. Check for Diagnostic Trouble Codes.
If codes, fix, if none, inspect:
  • START circuit in ignition switch
  • Open circuit between ignition switch and starter
  • Starter interlock switch

7. Verify (DTC) test results.
- if OK, return to diagnostic index to service any other symptoms
- if malfunction remains, check service bulletins and online repair info
     - if repaired, you're done
     - if not or additional diagnostic info, replace PCM (!)

Logged

'05 Ti MSM with: Flyin' Miata Downpipe, Midpipe, Exhaust | Hydra 2.7 ECU w/KO Racing tune | Deatschwerks 700cc Injectors | Turbosmart Manual Boost Controller | BEGi Cool Air Intake, Intercooler, Throttle Inlet | Forge Bypass Valve | FCM Elite Coilovers | Racing Beat 1.125" Tubular Front Sway Bar | Whiteline Endlinks | Enkei 15x8 PF01s | Hankook 225/45 R-S3s | Hard Dog HCHTDD Roll Bar | MiataRoadster Short Shift Kit | Audiovox Cruise Control | Sylfex AuxMod | VDO Boost Gauge | ScanGauge II | BlendMount | Cocomats
jp_buyitol
Third Gear
***
Posts: 184



« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2016, 04:43:31 AM »

I had a very similar experience and also was thinking Hydra but after putting it in gear and bumping the flywheel just enough to nudge the starter, it would usually crank.  I ordered a new starter motor at 50k and it has never happened again. 
Logged

2004 VR, Hydra 2.7, FM intake kit , FM Intercooler, 700 cc injectors, AFCO coilovers 450/300, Nautilus air horn, Hallman EVO Rx MBC, FM DP, MP and exh, Thompson OFRK, Speedhut boost, oil temp and water temp on LoTek triple pillar, 949 6UL 15x8, Nitto NT05 205/50/15, Audiovox cruise w/OEM stalk, Pioneer AVIC-D3, Hard Dog M2 Sport, Check Corp Seat heaters, MiataRoadster Short Shift Kit Std Ht, FM oil ck valve, Energy Suspension diff bushings, Track Dog Extreme Splitter
joeereid
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 1156



« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2016, 05:30:32 AM »

So to further summarize repair procedure...Check stuff to see if you can fix it. If you can, you're done. If you can't, replace Permanently Crippled Miata.
Logged

05 Mica, Sparco Speed, Hard Dog ACE with custom harness bar, Ultrashield 6 point harnesses,FM complete intake, O2 mod, FM downpipe, MR short shifter. Xida 700/400, 3.63 R+P (Spare), 3:9 R+P (current),EWUSA FMIC, Derale hardline delete PS cooler, FM Stage 2 fans w/ OEM connectors, Custom fab IC/Rad ducting, custom cowl intake/heatshield, Ultragauge,Rumblestrip Predictive Lap timer, APR custom mounted rear wing, Custom made streetable/removable front splitter, Run-Cool hood Louvers
Chrisbee
Fourth Gear
****
Posts: 254


« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2016, 05:38:27 AM »

I would think that if was an ECU issue, it would have a crank no start issue. I would check the easy stuff first. Maybe just replace the starter relay just because it's cheap, and I've seen relays give problems after heat cycling. If it has a click when trying to start, I'd say starter, or loose cable connection at starter, or battery.
Logged

2004 TI #3021. Purchased Oct. 2014 with 56k miles.

Engine: FM 2 kit with Hydra 2.7, 700cc injectors, and full 3" exhaust.
FM Crossflow radiator w/stage 2 airflow kit.
Suspension: Fox Racing with FM sway bars.
Wheels: 15x8 Enkei PF01s running 215/50 BFG G-force Sports.
Misc: Custom Speedhut boost gauge in place of stock oil pressure gauge. Temp gauge mod. ScanGaugeII. Blue instrument panel lights. Eclipse dash vents.

Definitely a work in progress!
thomsoad
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 1653



« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2016, 11:34:05 AM »

Thanks for the responses everybody.
Sounds like the good new is it isnt the Hydra.
And seems the likely culprits are either the starter relay or the starter itself.
Since the relay is the cheaper of the two I think Im gonna start there.
Never bothered with one before and got a good idea where it is .... but if someone could post a pic of its location Id appreciate it.  Smiley
Logged

Previous MSM: 2004 TI; FM LE; Falken FK452s

Current MSM: GT Mica;
SUSPENSION/TRANSMISSION: 215/45/17 Pilot Super Sports; Tein Street Advance Coilovers; FM Happy Meal Level 1 System; GarageStar door bushings; MR short shifter
ENGINE: FM Wiseco Pistons; Carrillo A rods; ARP studs; ATI Super Damper; Mazdaspeed competition motor mounts; oversized intake valves, oversized Inconel exhaust valves, ACL Race bearings , FM valve springs; 700CC Deatschwerks injectors:  NGK plugs; Magnecor 8.5s .
PERFORMANCE UPGRADES: Upgraded Blouche turbo, FM Intake, FM full Exhaust, FM Intercooler
ECU: Hydra 2.7
MISCELLANEOUS:  Autometer Boost Gauge; Audiovox CCS-100 cruise control, Motorcraft transmission fluid, Mobil 1 differential fluid, Castrol Platinum Synthetic Motor oil.

DYNOPACK RESULTS:
WHP: 256 @ 6141 rpm
TORQUE (lb/ft): 267.0 @ 4105 rpm
BOOST (PSI): 15.46 @ 4120 rpm
                     14.00 @ 3750 rpm

My MSM: Street...with attitude. Smiley
SilverMiataRacer
Global Moderator
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 25931



WWW
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2016, 11:40:49 AM »

Don't forget wiring issues.  Make sure the connections to the starter are tight

BTW according to the wiring diagram there is no starter relay.  There is the starter, the starter interlock switch, the ignition switch and wiring and electrical connections.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 11:48:09 AM by SilverMiataRacer » Logged

Larry

4 Miatas but who's counting!!   Cool

White Knight    1991 Crystal White   #99 CSP
Silver Bullet     1992 Silverstone     #17 SM2  FM I+ Turbo  (Gone but not forgotten)
Honey B          1992 Sunburst Yellow #99 SM2 J.R. M45
Whooosh         2004 Titanium MazdaSpeed MX5  #403 of 4000
Subie              2006 Steel Gray WRX STi Cobb Stage 2 (Gone but not forgotten)
No name yet    2008 Velocity Yellow Tintcoat Z06 Corvette
No Name yet    2014 Ashen Grey Metallic Camaro 2SS 1LE

“There are only three sports: mountain climbing, bull fighting, and motor racing. All the rest are merely games.”
– Ernest Hemingway
jp_buyitol
Third Gear
***
Posts: 184



« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2016, 07:08:51 PM »

The following was Jeremy's reply to me a couple of years ago when I had the similar issue and found it to be the starter:

 
The Hydra has nothing to do with the ignition switch or the starter, that line comes straight from the battery & the solenoid straight from the ignition. Also, the immobilizer is out of the picture with the stock ECU unplugged.  Sounds to me like a starter solenoid but there’s only one way to know for sure.
 
Might try a running car with jumper cables to your battery if it gives you trouble again in case your battery is low on amperage.
 
Logged

2004 VR, Hydra 2.7, FM intake kit , FM Intercooler, 700 cc injectors, AFCO coilovers 450/300, Nautilus air horn, Hallman EVO Rx MBC, FM DP, MP and exh, Thompson OFRK, Speedhut boost, oil temp and water temp on LoTek triple pillar, 949 6UL 15x8, Nitto NT05 205/50/15, Audiovox cruise w/OEM stalk, Pioneer AVIC-D3, Hard Dog M2 Sport, Check Corp Seat heaters, MiataRoadster Short Shift Kit Std Ht, FM oil ck valve, Energy Suspension diff bushings, Track Dog Extreme Splitter
thomsoad
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 1653



« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2016, 11:39:52 AM »

The following was Jeremy's reply to me a couple of years ago when I had the similar issue and found it to be the starter:

 
The Hydra has nothing to do with the ignition switch or the starter, that line comes straight from the battery & the solenoid straight from the ignition. Also, the immobilizer is out of the picture with the stock ECU unplugged.  Sounds to me like a starter solenoid but there’s only one way to know for sure.
 
Might try a running car with jumper cables to your battery if it gives you trouble again in case your battery is low on amperage.
 


Just as an update my car is getting worse on distance.
So this weekend i am going to attempt to take out the starter.
Been doing some reading and everything tells me that this is gonna be a PITA!
Any tips on removing these upper bolts will be appreciated. Smiley
Logged

Previous MSM: 2004 TI; FM LE; Falken FK452s

Current MSM: GT Mica;
SUSPENSION/TRANSMISSION: 215/45/17 Pilot Super Sports; Tein Street Advance Coilovers; FM Happy Meal Level 1 System; GarageStar door bushings; MR short shifter
ENGINE: FM Wiseco Pistons; Carrillo A rods; ARP studs; ATI Super Damper; Mazdaspeed competition motor mounts; oversized intake valves, oversized Inconel exhaust valves, ACL Race bearings , FM valve springs; 700CC Deatschwerks injectors:  NGK plugs; Magnecor 8.5s .
PERFORMANCE UPGRADES: Upgraded Blouche turbo, FM Intake, FM full Exhaust, FM Intercooler
ECU: Hydra 2.7
MISCELLANEOUS:  Autometer Boost Gauge; Audiovox CCS-100 cruise control, Motorcraft transmission fluid, Mobil 1 differential fluid, Castrol Platinum Synthetic Motor oil.

DYNOPACK RESULTS:
WHP: 256 @ 6141 rpm
TORQUE (lb/ft): 267.0 @ 4105 rpm
BOOST (PSI): 15.46 @ 4120 rpm
                     14.00 @ 3750 rpm

My MSM: Street...with attitude. Smiley
rotorglow
Toyotae non carborundum.
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 2699


« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2016, 02:39:01 PM »

Have you checked the things we've been suggesting that you check?
Logged

2004 VR Sport: FM Big Enchilada w/ Hydra 2.7 + DeatschWerks 700cc injectors + FM crossflow rad + 3.63 rear gears + ES poly diff bushings + comp motor mounts--Koni Sports + Ground Control 550/375 + Racing Beat 1.125" bar + blocks & bolts--Wilwood/AX6 brakes--15x8 6ULs + RE-71Rs--Speedhut + Clearwaters + Auxmod + other misc electrics
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