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Author Topic: About to pull head: questions.  (Read 30278 times)
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Ex36
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« on: August 17, 2016, 06:12:44 PM »

My exhaust manifold stud project is truly out of hand, but I'd rather dig deeper and feel well-assured everything is tip-top than bail.  Given my 20% leak-down number on #2 (which my mechanic guru friend says is not necessarily alarming for a cold engine), I want to examine and swap out the head gasket.  Here are my questions:

1.  I've taken all electrical connectors and vacuum hoses off the intake and only have the timing belt and fuel rail supply line to free and then I can lift the head and intake manifold out together, right?  There's one set of wires laying between the intake and block (the 3 connectors are held by a bracket affixed to the upper timing belt cover) and I'm hoping I don't have to fish that out of there, since it's under the fuel rail, which I want to leave attached.

2.  If I have a machine shop check out the valve seats and guides, and the exhaust manifold for true, is there any relatively inexpensive work worth doing for performance gains (porting, decking, etc.?).  I've never been into an engine this deep before.

3.  Rockauto sells head bolts from Fel-Pro or Victor Reinz for $25/set.  Any reasons not to do this on a stock engine instead of the $145 ARP?

4.  What about a Fel-Pro or VR head gasket instead of OEM?

5.  I may replace the original 2005 radiator, although I'm really sick of being nickeled-and-dimed with all the replacement parts I've purchased and could do it later.  I've read plenty about likelihood of failure and alternatives.  But I haven't seen any discussion of the dirt-cheap radiators Rockauto has (like $75-85).  I know there's a MSM-specific radiator, and I know those will have plastic which will eventually harden, but are they worthless garbage?  I'm not really interested in an aluminum upgrade and happy to regard the radiator as a "wear item" (like it is on my M3).

Thanks,
Sasha
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SilverMiataRacer
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« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2016, 06:27:58 PM »

I'm just going after 4 and 5 here  JMHO

Since this is a turbo I'm make sure whatever gasket I used had been successfully used by other people with turbos.

The radiators Rock Auto has are the same part number for a turbo and a non-turbo car so which is it??  The turbo or the non-turbo version.  My take, not worth the chance.
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Larry

4 Miatas but who's counting!!   Cool

White Knight    1991 Crystal White   #99 CSP
Silver Bullet     1992 Silverstone     #17 SM2  FM I+ Turbo  (Gone but not forgotten)
Honey B          1992 Sunburst Yellow #99 SM2 J.R. M45
Whooosh         2004 Titanium MazdaSpeed MX5  #403 of 4000
Subie              2006 Steel Gray WRX STi Cobb Stage 2 (Gone but not forgotten)
No name yet    2008 Velocity Yellow Tintcoat Z06 Corvette
No Name yet    2014 Ashen Grey Metallic Camaro 2SS 1LE

“There are only three sports: mountain climbing, bull fighting, and motor racing. All the rest are merely games.”
– Ernest Hemingway
PK1
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« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2016, 09:30:15 PM »

I consider myself very much a newbie with these cars but given that radiator is a topic that I have thought about myself, I'll offer you what my decision process looked like (your situation and climate may be different):

- My stock 2005 radiator seems fine, but given that it is 11 years old I decided I should change it
- Had I been planning on keeping my car stock, I would have seriously considered getting another OEM radiator for the MSM as a plug and play
- Since I will be upgrading my car at least with a FM LE (more power = more heat), added to the fact that I live in a warm/hot climate made it logical for me to upgrade the rad and fans.  I purchased the FM cross flow with their stage II fan kit.  I don't track or race the car, but my logic: I don't want to drive on a 100 degree day in traffic thinking whether or not I should be running the AC or if I should drive gingerly in fear of overheating...  This is not why I bought this car.

As a disclaimer, I haven't installed either the FM LE nor the radiator (just bought them 1-2 weeks ago, need to find time!), but given how critical cooling is and the extent of associated damage, my logic was not to mess with a cheap rad.  I would say as a minimum buy the OEM rad. designed for these cars.

My two cents...
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2005 VR MSM, #1254 of 1428
FM exhaust
Rest of FM LE kit + FM radiator and stage II fan in boxes awaiting installation
ElyasWolff
Second Gear
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« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2016, 09:55:11 PM »

1. it would be easier to take the upper intake manifold off. that way you can remove the fuel rail, injectors and wiring easier.

2. You can do some light port work at home for the price of a dremmel. Just go easy and focus on smoothing thins out rather than reshaping your ports.
http://www.mazda-speed.com/forum2/index.php/topic,32322.msg356433.html#msg356433

3. The rock auto bolts work fine for your application

4. I used this fel-pro head gasket set from rock auto
http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=6650532&cc=1433205&jsn=373
Of the 2 they sell this one is for the MSM, it also comes with the exhaust gaskets for the turbo as well as the oil return line gaskets. Part number: HS26234PT2

If you are going to do port work you might as well lap the valves yourself. It is easy with a drill and a peice of vaccum line attached to the valve stem.

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2004 VR red MSM. Clapped out, beat to heck, and then rescued because this car is worthy project.
'95MSM
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Turbo clocked downward, new i/c plumbing


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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2016, 01:49:11 AM »

1) I would definitely do a performance-oriented valve lash adjustment while the head is off (~.008 intake, .009 exhaust).

2) I doubt that a machine shop is going to want to deal with the head with the manifold attached, so do a VTCS delete while it is off.

3) I agree with EW - lap the valves yourself if you have access to a valve spring compressor. I made a gizmo that goes between the valve spring compressor and the top of the spring retention plate. It has windows that allow the keepers to be plucked out or settled into place. I don't know how I would go about disassembing and reassembling the valves & springs without it. It might be possible...

4) My gut says the most restrictive area in the intake manifold (other than at the VTCS half-butterflies) is the mouth of the plenum. The EGR passage is the tunnel at the lower left & can be removed if you have the tools (die grinder). This would be a tiny gain, but tiny gains add up.
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'05 running gear + '95 body
3.63 ring & pinion FM content: Blouch compressor mod, FM-Link, i/c & no-MAF intake.   BEGi: Stainless SGDP w/ metal core performance cat.   Custom stuff: Compressor clocked downward w/ new i/c pipe, big radius throttle elbow, 2.5" mid-pipe w/ Hushpower II, dual 2" axle-back w/ open Supertrapps, Toyota 4 pc cop ignition

245.2 whp on default FM-Link maps (with OEM midpipe)
Graz16
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Posts: 25



« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2016, 11:26:58 PM »

Hi Sasha,

I suspect that it gets at least as warm in SoCarolina as it does in SoCal. Please consider the water pump and the timing belt replacement. I know it is more work and "project creep" is a real issue. But, if those haven't been done, You will have to do them eventually. Why not have an engine closer to OEM specs?

Just my 0.02
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~~~~~~
John

"All that wander are not lost."

'04 VR  81k miles At least 3rd owner. 27X5.5X2.5" FMIC
Flyin'n Miata's cross flow radiator and their stage 2 fan upgrade. All four wheel bearings, head gasket, valves, lifters, springs, timing belt, water pump, front cam seals, front main seal, and 2 thermostats have all been replaced since May '16.
Ex36
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Posts: 167


« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2016, 02:27:09 AM »

A new TB and WP (along with the various tensioners and seals) are sitting on the garage floor, so I'm definitely doing them!  Good luck sorting out your cooling issues. 

Thanks for the input everyone.  It sounds like I've got more digging to do.  Maybe the car will be ready for the fall, which is much more glorious here than the summer.
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Ex36
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Posts: 167


« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2016, 06:27:26 PM »

Had to kick the started to break the crank nose bolt free--that sucker was on there.  Now do I just grab onto the Woodruff key with a needle nose in order to get the pulley off (10mm bolts are off as well)?
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Qwimby1
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« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2016, 01:21:55 AM »

I'm at the radiator-replace stage now also and was considering the FM crossflow and definitely the FM intercooler as I work toward getting this car track ready.  With the intercooler I'll have almost a full LE kit.  I've put 80,000 miles on the car in Florida, much of it in 90-degree plus heat with the air on and never had a cooling problem.  One of the FM guys thought, with my power setup, I'd be just fine with another OEM radiator and their intercooler.  If I get another 80,000 miles out of the new plastic rad I'll consider it a good buy.
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05 Titanium MSM with essentially permanent hardtop.  FM intake and downpipe, V-Maxx suspension, 15" BBS wheels from 95LE, 3.63 diff.  In the past - 94 NA, 83 Ferrari 308 GTS Quatrovalve, 86 Ferrari 328 GTS, 86 Porsche 944, 86 944 turbo, 62 XKE coupe, 64 XKE coupe, 55 Jaguar XK140 MC coupe, 71 Volvo P1800. 55 Triumph T110 motorcycle, 74 Honda 550, 99 BMW R1100RT, 02 BMW R1150RT, 04 BMW R1150R, 09 Suzuki V-Strom 650. lots of assorted British, German and Italian cars and bikes.
'95MSM
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Turbo clocked downward, new i/c plumbing


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« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2016, 03:11:41 AM »

Had to kick the started to break the crank nose bolt free--that sucker was on there.  Now do I just grab onto the Woodruff key with a needle nose in order to get the pulley off (10mm bolts are off as well)?
Maybe someone with more recent experience will answer, but IIRC, the key IS a woodruff type, which is a crescent shaped key that sits in a crescent shaped hole. The pulley hub has to come off the crank, then the key can be removed. Tap all around the perimeter of the pulley or hub and try to walk it off. If that doesn't work, you'll need to use a puller. (If you have a puller, jump to that step and forget the tapping.) If you haven't used a puller, post it here and someone will describe the process.
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'05 running gear + '95 body
3.63 ring & pinion FM content: Blouch compressor mod, FM-Link, i/c & no-MAF intake.   BEGi: Stainless SGDP w/ metal core performance cat.   Custom stuff: Compressor clocked downward w/ new i/c pipe, big radius throttle elbow, 2.5" mid-pipe w/ Hushpower II, dual 2" axle-back w/ open Supertrapps, Toyota 4 pc cop ignition

245.2 whp on default FM-Link maps (with OEM midpipe)
Ex36
Third Gear
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Posts: 167


« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2016, 03:26:16 AM »

It looks like there's still a metal collar or flange within the center of the pulley that overlaps the pulley, so it looks kind of like the key has to come out first, and then this insert with the flange, and then maybe the pulley will come free?  My reading made it sound like once I removed the 4 small bolts and then the monster crank bolt I would be golden.  TBH, it's strange to me how much there is written about the TB change (Keith's book, YouTube DIY's, etc.), yet this part is not clearly described or shown.
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SilverMiataRacer
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« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2016, 09:54:42 AM »

The key is an asymmetrical rectangle shaped part.  It is VERY important it be replaced in exactly the correct orientation or it leads to crank nose failure. 

Remove the 4 bolts and take off the big pulley and timing disc paying attention to the position of the disc.  Remove the bolt and remove the pulley boss and pay attention to the directional fit of the key.  Smart money says to replace the key, loctite the bolt and torque and replace the 4 bolts and CAREFULLY torque them as they have surprisingly low torque settings.
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Larry

4 Miatas but who's counting!!   Cool

White Knight    1991 Crystal White   #99 CSP
Silver Bullet     1992 Silverstone     #17 SM2  FM I+ Turbo  (Gone but not forgotten)
Honey B          1992 Sunburst Yellow #99 SM2 J.R. M45
Whooosh         2004 Titanium MazdaSpeed MX5  #403 of 4000
Subie              2006 Steel Gray WRX STi Cobb Stage 2 (Gone but not forgotten)
No name yet    2008 Velocity Yellow Tintcoat Z06 Corvette
No Name yet    2014 Ashen Grey Metallic Camaro 2SS 1LE

“There are only three sports: mountain climbing, bull fighting, and motor racing. All the rest are merely games.”
– Ernest Hemingway
mr_hyde
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Posts: 7213


Midlife Crisis on Wheels!


« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2016, 01:41:34 AM »

The two accessory bolt pulleys that are attached with the four 10mm head bolts can stay together with the rest of the assembly.  The whole thing should slide off the crank once the timing belt is loose.  I just did an early NB timing belt and once the big 21mm bolt was out, the rest just came apart very easy.  They key even sat on the crank.  If you have more corrosion than that, you might need a puller but usually the OEM pulleys come right off.
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2005 Black Mica #290 8/27/04 w/Factory Hard Top
BEGi Intake, FM Downpipe.  Nice and calm with an edge...

1990 Red - MSM Drivetrain, Adaptronic EMS, Xida 700/400, 15x9 6uls, Full Cage, SGDP w/80mm Corksport exhaust, ~260whp @ 15psi on Forged Rods.  bow2
Build Thread: http://www.mazda-speed.com/forum2/index.php/topic,24668.0.html

2000 BMW M5 - The Falcon - Daily Driver  reddevil

2003 E350 7.3 Powerstroke Ambulance for towing '90MSM to play dates.

1991 BRG - Daughter's daily driver.
Ex36
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Posts: 167


« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2016, 05:15:08 PM »

Thanks.  With the 21 mm crank nose bolt out, as well as the 4 x 10mm bolts, I gather the pulley that drives the 2 accessory belts should just come off.  There must be corrosion on the back side "gluing" it in place.  Are you suggesting that if I loosen the TB tensioner,  those 2 accessory pulleys will come off with the toothed timing belt pulley behind all as a unit?
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mr_hyde
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Midlife Crisis on Wheels!


« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2016, 11:25:50 PM »

Yes. You might need to take the timing belt actually off the cam gears to make sure it is free but the whole thing should come out. A few whacks with a rubber mallet might do the trick. On the stock damper/pulley set, the gear the timing belt runs on is just held in place by the whole assembly and that big bolt.
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2005 Black Mica #290 8/27/04 w/Factory Hard Top
BEGi Intake, FM Downpipe.  Nice and calm with an edge...

1990 Red - MSM Drivetrain, Adaptronic EMS, Xida 700/400, 15x9 6uls, Full Cage, SGDP w/80mm Corksport exhaust, ~260whp @ 15psi on Forged Rods.  bow2
Build Thread: http://www.mazda-speed.com/forum2/index.php/topic,24668.0.html

2000 BMW M5 - The Falcon - Daily Driver  reddevil

2003 E350 7.3 Powerstroke Ambulance for towing '90MSM to play dates.

1991 BRG - Daughter's daily driver.
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