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Author Topic: Am I the only one disappointed in the butterfly brace?  (Read 1392 times)
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revlis240
Third Gear
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Posts: 233


Everything happens for a reason.


« on: September 16, 2016, 06:04:36 AM »

Hey guys,
All the reviews online said that I would LOVE this frame rail/butterfly brace thing and I have to say I dont know if I agree? To be clear, the quality of the product is TOP NOTCH and as is ofcourse, FMs customer service. This is not a knock on their product, but more so the theory?

Also, to be clear, my MSM had zero issues with the factory fails. They didnt have so much as a ding on them. So perhaps, my MSM wasnt that "loose" to begin with?

But to get to the point...I dont feel a damn thing. It feels exactly the same? The only difference I feel is perhaps what I WANT to feel and not so much an actual difference. The hard top still creeks slightly on the driveway, same as before.

My ebay DP caused the center section to be mounted as low as possible, but I made no modifications to the brace, and the nuts are as tight as they get across the board.

So...what have I missed?

Smiley

Abe
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#1241 of 1428 in TiGray | AEM Intake | Ebay FMIC | MBC at 10psi | Forge BOV | Begi TB Inlet | 315cc Injectors | Ebay Elbow | PCV Bypassed |

#598 of 1428 in Lave Orange! | FM Intake | MBC at 10psi | ebay Forge style BOV | PCV Bypassed | Hydra 2.5 Install pending | 550cc injector install pending | FM LBBK | Magnaflow 2.5" Catback Exhaust | Ebay Elbow & Downpipe
thomsoad
Fifth Gear
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Posts: 1653



« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2016, 09:46:33 AM »

Im sorry to say that the butterfly brace was designed more for the earlier miatas then for our cars. As the NA/NB version progressed thru the years Mazda reinforced the chasi more and more. The MSM stock is already braced about as well as it can be.
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Previous MSM: 2004 TI; FM LE; Falken FK452s

Current MSM: GT Mica;
SUSPENSION/TRANSMISSION: 215/45/17 Pilot Super Sports; Tein Street Advance Coilovers; FM Happy Meal Level 1 System; GarageStar door bushings; MR short shifter
ENGINE: FM Wiseco Pistons; Carrillo A rods; ARP studs; ATI Super Damper; Mazdaspeed competition motor mounts; oversized intake valves, oversized Inconel exhaust valves, ACL Race bearings , FM valve springs; 700CC Deatschwerks injectors:  NGK plugs; Magnecor 8.5s .
PERFORMANCE UPGRADES: Upgraded Blouche turbo, FM Intake, FM full Exhaust, FM Intercooler
ECU: Hydra 2.7
MISCELLANEOUS:  Autometer Boost Gauge; Audiovox CCS-100 cruise control, Motorcraft transmission fluid, Mobil 1 differential fluid, Castrol Platinum Synthetic Motor oil.

DYNOPACK RESULTS:
WHP: 256 @ 6141 rpm
TORQUE (lb/ft): 267.0 @ 4105 rpm
BOOST (PSI): 15.46 @ 4120 rpm
                     14.00 @ 3750 rpm

My MSM: Street...with attitude. Smiley
Lokiel
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 860


Don't worry about dying, worry about not living!


« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2016, 12:36:31 PM »

I'm surprised you even managed to fit the brace on an MSM.
When I bought the FM Frame Rails years ago I think there was even something mentioned on the page that it wouldn't fit the MSM.

The butterfly brace was designed for early NAs.
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Ti Aussie "SE" (cannot be called "MazdaSpeed" here, "speed/performance" badging encourages reckless driving apparently), DIY AutoTune MS3-Pro ECU, Borg-Warner EFR6258, NitroDann custom manifold+3"exhaust+CAI, Injector Dynamics 1000cc injectors, GM D514A CNPs, 83.5mm coated CP pistons, K1 rods, Fab9 350HP intercooler,  ported Squaretop Intake Manifold, Skunk2 Throttle Body, ATi Super Damper, '95MSM SpeedHut Boost Gauge Mod, GREDDY Remote Oil Filter Relocation with Thermostat, Setrab Oil Cooler, BC Racing BR Series coilovers (8/6kg), 1.125" Racing Beat Tubular Sway Bar + Al Braces, 949racing SuperMiata end links, Carbing 3-pt shock tower brace, Nickel 6UL 15x8s, Toyo R1Rs 225/45/15, Wilwood Front BBK, SS Brake Lines, FM Frame Rails, Boss Frog "Frog Arms", MX5 Plus Twin Hoop Roll Bar, MiataRoadster long-angled SSK, Piano-Black Voodoo Knob&HandBrake, Innovate MTX-L Wideband O2 gauge+sensor, Lotus Probax seats + lots of "goes faster" chrome bling (since chrome reflects light, less of the colour spectrum is absorbed, making the car lighter - "pseudo-science" Smiley ).
Build Thread: http://mx5cartalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=41091
PK1
Third Gear
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Posts: 186


« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2016, 12:58:27 PM »

Im sorry to say that the butterfly brace was designed more for the earlier miatas then for our cars. As the NA/NB version progressed thru the years Mazda reinforced the chasi more and more. The MSM stock is already braced about as well as it can be.

What he said.  You have essentially mounted the new bracing on top of existing bracing.  When I was installing the FM exhaust I had to remove a lot of the existing bracing and was impressed with how much was already there.
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2005 VR MSM, #1254 of 1428
FM exhaust
Rest of FM LE kit + FM radiator and stage II fan in boxes awaiting installation
revlis240
Third Gear
***
Posts: 233


Everything happens for a reason.


« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2016, 06:38:13 PM »

Unless I am mistaken, the MSM doesn't have a brace that the factory sport cars didn't also have. So what you're saying is that the rails and the butterfly are useless on a factory sport car. I wish that had been more clear, and I hope this helps someone in the future. Fortunately I have another base NB I can put this butterfly on so it's not a total waste!

I do believe I read plenty of threads of people raving about it on an NB not just an na but perhaps I am mistaken again.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 06:40:11 PM by revlis240 » Logged

#1241 of 1428 in TiGray | AEM Intake | Ebay FMIC | MBC at 10psi | Forge BOV | Begi TB Inlet | 315cc Injectors | Ebay Elbow | PCV Bypassed |

#598 of 1428 in Lave Orange! | FM Intake | MBC at 10psi | ebay Forge style BOV | PCV Bypassed | Hydra 2.5 Install pending | 550cc injector install pending | FM LBBK | Magnaflow 2.5" Catback Exhaust | Ebay Elbow & Downpipe
revlis240
Third Gear
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Posts: 233


Everything happens for a reason.


« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2016, 04:23:47 AM »

Update:
Put the factory sport brace back on and the car actually, in my opinion, feels better than with the butterfly brace. I had to have the butterfly brace on the lowest setting so I dont know if that has anything to do with it, but at least to me, the factory brace being back on feels better.

I drove the car back to back and no other changes were made.

So thats how my MSM will remain. FM Frame Rails + factory sport bracing = good as it gets I suppose.
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#1241 of 1428 in TiGray | AEM Intake | Ebay FMIC | MBC at 10psi | Forge BOV | Begi TB Inlet | 315cc Injectors | Ebay Elbow | PCV Bypassed |

#598 of 1428 in Lave Orange! | FM Intake | MBC at 10psi | ebay Forge style BOV | PCV Bypassed | Hydra 2.5 Install pending | 550cc injector install pending | FM LBBK | Magnaflow 2.5" Catback Exhaust | Ebay Elbow & Downpipe
mr_hyde
Global Moderator
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Midlife Crisis on Wheels!


« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2016, 05:27:21 AM »

The downside of the butterfly on cars like ours is that you are taking off a perfectly good factory brace to add the butterfly.  I'm sure it would do amazing things to a 25 year old NA6 that is completely open down there but it isn't a good bang for your buck on the MSM.  I left the frame rails on my car because I think they do add some value and removing them would leave a bunch of holes in the floor pan but I sold the center section.

I do remember reading comments from FM that pretty much agree with what is being said here so it isn't like they are trying to sell snake oil.   afro
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2005 Black Mica #290 8/27/04 w/Factory Hard Top
BEGi Intake, FM Downpipe.  Nice and calm with an edge...

1990 Red - MSM Drivetrain, Adaptronic EMS, Xida 700/400, 15x9 6uls, Full Cage, SGDP w/80mm Corksport exhaust, ~260whp @ 15psi on Forged Rods.  bow2
Build Thread: http://www.mazda-speed.com/forum2/index.php/topic,24668.0.html

2000 BMW M5 - The Falcon - Daily Driver  reddevil

2003 E350 7.3 Powerstroke Ambulance for towing '90MSM to play dates.

1991 BRG - Daughter's daily driver.
Lokiel
Fifth Gear
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Posts: 860


Don't worry about dying, worry about not living!


« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2016, 01:08:50 PM »

:
So thats how my MSM will remain. FM Frame Rails + factory sport bracing = good as it gets I suppose.
Adding a roll bar (NOT a Style Bar) and Frog Arms helps a lot too.

Door bars will help too but aren't practical on a DD.

For me, this is how I rank my "stiffening" modz:
1. Twin hoop roll bar with built-in torque box (see http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mazda-MX5-NA-NB-89-05-Roll-Bar-Twin-Hoop-Torque-Box-Design-Uncoated-/282152911674) - drastically reduces chassis twist (even noticeable during slow-speed turns)
2. Frog Arms - noticeable stiffness on sharp turns and reduced cowl shake driving over corrugated surfaces
3. FM Frame rails - didn't notice any difference while driving but when you use the scissor jack to raise the car, the other wheel on that side gets airborne MUCH earlier so it definitely adds stiffness.

My car is so stiff with these modz that when I get both wheels on one side up using a scissor jack at one "corner", I can actually pivot the car across the diagonal from the scissor jack (not recommended). On jack stands, the car also rocks diagonally so I have to use screw-stands rather than pin-stands since the pin-stands don't provide enough adjustability.

I love the FM frame rails because it makes switching to track tyres and brake pads MUCH quicker - I use a trolley jack in the middle of the rail and change both tyres+pads at once, much quicker than using the scissor jack.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 01:10:12 PM by Lokiel » Logged

Ti Aussie "SE" (cannot be called "MazdaSpeed" here, "speed/performance" badging encourages reckless driving apparently), DIY AutoTune MS3-Pro ECU, Borg-Warner EFR6258, NitroDann custom manifold+3"exhaust+CAI, Injector Dynamics 1000cc injectors, GM D514A CNPs, 83.5mm coated CP pistons, K1 rods, Fab9 350HP intercooler,  ported Squaretop Intake Manifold, Skunk2 Throttle Body, ATi Super Damper, '95MSM SpeedHut Boost Gauge Mod, GREDDY Remote Oil Filter Relocation with Thermostat, Setrab Oil Cooler, BC Racing BR Series coilovers (8/6kg), 1.125" Racing Beat Tubular Sway Bar + Al Braces, 949racing SuperMiata end links, Carbing 3-pt shock tower brace, Nickel 6UL 15x8s, Toyo R1Rs 225/45/15, Wilwood Front BBK, SS Brake Lines, FM Frame Rails, Boss Frog "Frog Arms", MX5 Plus Twin Hoop Roll Bar, MiataRoadster long-angled SSK, Piano-Black Voodoo Knob&HandBrake, Innovate MTX-L Wideband O2 gauge+sensor, Lotus Probax seats + lots of "goes faster" chrome bling (since chrome reflects light, less of the colour spectrum is absorbed, making the car lighter - "pseudo-science" Smiley ).
Build Thread: http://mx5cartalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=41091
PK1
Third Gear
***
Posts: 186


« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2016, 02:34:07 AM »

For me, this is how I rank my "stiffening" modz:
1. Twin hoop roll bar with built-in torque box (see http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mazda-MX5-NA-NB-89-05-Roll-Bar-Twin-Hoop-Torque-Box-Design-Uncoated-/282152911674) - drastically reduces chassis twist (even noticeable during slow-speed turns)

This is an interesting design! Although shipping to the US from Australia isn't practical, I am still curious: was it easier to install than the traditional roll bar?
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2005 VR MSM, #1254 of 1428
FM exhaust
Rest of FM LE kit + FM radiator and stage II fan in boxes awaiting installation
Lokiel
Fifth Gear
*****
Posts: 860


Don't worry about dying, worry about not living!


« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2016, 02:38:54 AM »

NO Sad

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

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Ti Aussie "SE" (cannot be called "MazdaSpeed" here, "speed/performance" badging encourages reckless driving apparently), DIY AutoTune MS3-Pro ECU, Borg-Warner EFR6258, NitroDann custom manifold+3"exhaust+CAI, Injector Dynamics 1000cc injectors, GM D514A CNPs, 83.5mm coated CP pistons, K1 rods, Fab9 350HP intercooler,  ported Squaretop Intake Manifold, Skunk2 Throttle Body, ATi Super Damper, '95MSM SpeedHut Boost Gauge Mod, GREDDY Remote Oil Filter Relocation with Thermostat, Setrab Oil Cooler, BC Racing BR Series coilovers (8/6kg), 1.125" Racing Beat Tubular Sway Bar + Al Braces, 949racing SuperMiata end links, Carbing 3-pt shock tower brace, Nickel 6UL 15x8s, Toyo R1Rs 225/45/15, Wilwood Front BBK, SS Brake Lines, FM Frame Rails, Boss Frog "Frog Arms", MX5 Plus Twin Hoop Roll Bar, MiataRoadster long-angled SSK, Piano-Black Voodoo Knob&HandBrake, Innovate MTX-L Wideband O2 gauge+sensor, Lotus Probax seats + lots of "goes faster" chrome bling (since chrome reflects light, less of the colour spectrum is absorbed, making the car lighter - "pseudo-science" Smiley ).
Build Thread: http://mx5cartalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=41091
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